Do subwoofers benefit high-end, audiophile-quality rigs with full-range speakers?

[realdanlong]

To my fellow audiophiles, I'm wondering if subwoofers are really necessary (as Rel says) on a high-end vinyl, stereo system since the bass guitar only goes down to around 43Hz and my speakers handle down to 28 Hz? I've been experimenting with this lately with a Rel Carbon Special. I only have one currently. I know Rel recommends a stereo pair. I'm trying to decide whether to buy another or just sell the one i have. So far, I can't seem to tell a difference between when the Rel is on and when it is off, unless i have it turned up too loud. What is your opinion on the matter?

My reference system consists of:
Linn LP 12 / Linn Uphorik phono stage
McIntosh C52 preamp
McIntosh MC452 amp
Sonus Faber Amati Tradition loudspeakers

On this system, I listen to mostly:
Rock
Hard rock/Heavy Metal
80's New Wave/Alternative
Grunge

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If your speakers can produce a clean 28Hz at 110dB, then you probably don’t need additional subs. But since they most likely cannot, you do need subwoofers.

 

[ryanosaur]

To my fellow audiophiles, I'm wondering if subwoofers are really necessary (as Rel says) on a high-end vinyl, stereo system since the bass guitar only goes down to around 43Hz and my speakers handle down to 28 Hz? I've been experimenting with this lately with a Rel Carbon Special. I only have one currently. I know Rel recommends a stereo pair. I'm trying to decide whether to buy another or just sell the one i have. So far, I can't seem to tell a difference between when the Rel is on and when it is off, unless i have it turned up too loud. What is your opinion on the matter?

My reference system consists of:
Linn LP 12 / Linn Uphorik phono stage
McIntosh C52 preamp
McIntosh MC452 amp
Sonus Faber Amati Tradition loudspeakers

On this system, I listen to mostly:
Rock
Hard rock/Heavy Metal
80's New Wave/Alternative
Grunge

The short answer is yes.
-ish.

For my own experience, I could hear subtle differences as I raised the xo between Speaker and sub. Mostly in clarity and presence in upper mids and treble ranges like female vocal and the attack and sizzle of a cymbal.

I’ll be honest and tell you I am absolutely not a fan of REL and their marketing. You can get very capable Subs that will outperform REL, and for less money. But that’s a whole other conversation.

For what it’s worth, there is a lot of information that comes out at lower frequencies. Also Keep in mind most grand pianos will play 29 Hz as lowest frequencies.

I absolutely would not get rid of my Subs!

Regardless, so much of this will also come down to your own values. Only you can determine if it is actually of any value to you.

 

[lovinthehd]

To my fellow audiophiles, I'm wondering if subwoofers are really necessary (as Rel says) on a high-end vinyl, stereo system since the bass guitar only goes down to around 43Hz and my speakers handle down to 28 Hz? I've been experimenting with this lately with a Rel Carbon Special. I only have one currently. I know Rel recommends a stereo pair. I'm trying to decide whether to buy another or just sell the one i have. So far, I can't seem to tell a difference between when the Rel is on and when it is off, unless i have it turned up too loud. What is your opinion on the matter?

My reference system consists of:
Linn LP 12 / Linn Uphorik phono stage
McIntosh C52 preamp
McIntosh MC452 amp
Sonus Faber Amati Tradition loudspeakers

On this system, I listen to mostly:
Rock
Hard rock/Heavy Metal
80's New Wave/Alternative
Grunge

Can't imagine a high end vinyl based system particularly these days. Rel's opinions, meh (as well as most of their "subs"). Stereo subs aren't that much to consider compared to simply well placed subs. If only listening to vinyl, speakers with an f3 of 28hz could well be sufficient, tho.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I’ve seen this somewhere, and it makes sense, that with separate main speakers and subs, you can locate each for optimum performance.

For instance, people often prefer the main speakers to be some feet out in the room, away from the wall, for best imaging. That’s typically not where you want to locate a sub, which usually perform best with boundary reinforcement (“best” meaning lowest extension and highest output).

I agree with what others said, no need for stereo subs. If you do go with two subs, they should be mono.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can't imagine a high end vinyl based system particularly these days. Rel's opinions, meh (as well as most of their "subs"). Stereo subs aren't that much to consider compared to simply well placed subs. If only listening to vinyl, speakers with an f3 of 28hz could well be sufficient, tho.

You know how a lot of these companies say their speakers FR is from 28Hz-30kHz.

I was looking at another Sonus speaker that retailed $36K that had a FR of like “25Hz-30kHz”. But on Stereophile the F3 was closer to 35-36 Hz.

So if they’re saying “28Hz”, the actual F3 is probably closer to 40Hz.

 

[TLS Guy]

To my fellow audiophiles, I'm wondering if subwoofers are really necessary (as Rel says) on a high-end vinyl, stereo system since the bass guitar only goes down to around 43Hz and my speakers handle down to 28 Hz? I've been experimenting with this lately with a Rel Carbon Special. I only have one currently. I know Rel recommends a stereo pair. I'm trying to decide whether to buy another or just sell the one i have. So far, I can't seem to tell a difference between when the Rel is on and when it is off, unless i have it turned up too loud. What is your opinion on the matter?

My reference system consists of:
Linn LP 12 / Linn Uphorik phono stage
McIntosh C52 preamp
McIntosh MC452 amp
Sonus Faber Amati Tradition loudspeakers

On this system, I listen to mostly:
Rock
Hard rock/Heavy Metal
80's New Wave/Alternative
Grunge

If your speakers actually do have an F3 in the neighbor hood of 30 Hz, you don't need subs. I have speakers in my family room that have an F3 in that region. In play a lot of vinyl on that system. The subs really don't add anything. When you cut an LP you have to roll the cutting lathe off at the lowest at 30 Hz, otherwise you get groove kissing. And good RIAA inputs have a roll off in the region of 30 Hz to prevent warp wow with large useless woofer excursions.

I did manage to find measurements. As is the case so often, they are not very competently designed speakers. As far as the bass, there is a nasty peak at 65 Hz, and the F3 is about 37 Hz. Again the bass alignment is suspect and the bass rolls off smartly after that peak. John Atkinson was not impressed except negatively.

I would not let that pass muster.

That seems to be a very nice rig to listen to filthy rows like that. I would find something better to listen to than that mindless garbage.

 

[j_garcia]

You know how a lot of these companies say their speakers FR is from 28Hz-30kHz.

I was looking at another Sonus speaker that retailed $36K that had a FR of like “25Hz-30kHz”. But on Stereophile the F3 was closer to 35-36 Hz.

So if they’re saying “28Hz”, the actual F3 is probably closer to 40Hz.

They give the range with no spec, that range it is often -6dB, not -3dB. Meaning the -3dB is much higher, and that is obvious when you see it on a graph vs. claimed numbers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did manage to find measurements. As is the case so often, they are not very competently designed speakers. As far as the bass, there is a nasty peak at 65 Hz, and the F3 is about 37 Hz. Again the bass alignment is suspect and the bass rolls off smartly after that peak. John Atkinson was not impressed except negatively.

Sonus Faber Amati Futura loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

I think you were looking at their $36K speakers that have a spec of 25Hz-30kHz.

The speakers he currently owns retailed in the $20K with a spec of 28Hz-30kHz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They give the range with no spec, that range it is often -6dB, not -3dB. Meaning the -3dB is much higher, and that is obvious when you see it on a graph vs. claimed numbers.

Yep. In this case, the F3 is about 28Hz at -10dB.

 

[realdanlong]

That seems to be a very nice rig to listen to filthy rows like that. I would find something better to listen to than that mindless garbage.

I am devastated to learn that all of the AM/FM radio music we all cut our teeth on the 60s, 70s and 80s is garbage. LOL Hell, that's the whole reason i learned to love music! LOL

Please enlighten us on what music is NOT garbage? I'm sure there are others wondering about the same thing. I always like to keep an open mind so that i may learn something new.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Bottom line, the level of bass you want is purely subjective. If it sounds good to you without subs, then you don't need subs.

 

[isolar8001]

I am devastated to learn that all of the AM/FM radio music we all cut our teeth on the 60s, 70s and 80s is garbage. LOL Hell, that's the whole reason i learned to love music! LOL

Please enlighten us on what music is NOT garbage? I'm sure there are others wondering about the same thing. I always like to keep an open mind so that i may learn something new.

Regardless of what one thinks of 60s, 70s and 80s artistically, one thing is true...If you are into sub bass, it ain't there on most popular recordings from that era.

 

[ski2xblack]

I am devastated to learn that all of the AM/FM radio music we all cut our teeth on the 60s, 70s and 80s is garbage. LOL Hell, that's the whole reason i learned to love music! LOL

Please enlighten us on what music is NOT garbage?

TLS is about 235 years old. It's strictly classical for him. Don't sweat his criticism of your taste in music or take it too seriously. DO take his technical expertise seriously, he's quite wise.

I agree with above feedback regarding requirements for a vinyl oriented rig. Extension below 30 hz isn't required or doing much for you.

It's possible that using a sub may offer more even bass response at more locations in the room (modal smoothing from multiple sources of low bass), but that's highly room and calibration dependant. As you've experienced yourself, the sub only made a distinct difference when miscalibrated. It shouldn't draw your attention in any way. A well sorted rig gets out of the way as much as possible, letting the music draw your full attention. So for you, it may not make enough difference to bother with.

If your speakers really extend to low 30's, then no, subs aren't necessarily necessary.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am devastated to learn that all of the AM/FM radio music we all cut our teeth on the 60s, 70s and 80s is garbage. LOL Hell, that's the whole reason i learned to love music! LOL

Please enlighten us on what music is NOT garbage? I'm sure there are others wondering about the same thing. I always like to keep an open mind so that i may learn something new.

I think top of the list would be Bach, Handel, Beethoven and Mozart for starters. But there is a very long list indeed going back hundreds of years and still growing.

 

[lovinthehd]

I am devastated to learn that all of the AM/FM radio music we all cut our teeth on the 60s, 70s and 80s is garbage. LOL Hell, that's the whole reason i learned to love music! LOL

Please enlighten us on what music is NOT garbage? I'm sure there are others wondering about the same thing. I always like to keep an open mind so that i may learn something new.

LOL some of the best. LOL 235 years old for his music is about right I guess Classical is okay sometimes, but such a small slice of the pie.

 

[lovinthehd]

You know how a lot of these companies say their speakers FR is from 28Hz-30kHz.

I was looking at another Sonus speaker that retailed $36K that had a FR of like “25Hz-30kHz”. But on Stereophile the F3 was closer to 35-36 Hz.

So if they’re saying “28Hz”, the actual F3 is probably closer to 40Hz.

As mentioned, if it isn't spec'd as f3, it's more likely f6 or f10 depending on marketing department

 

[Will Brink]

Most costly system I listened to had 350k per pair Wilson speakers, and still had subs. I think there's no system that does not benefit a lot to a little by the inclusion of quality subs correctly set up for various reasons the technically adept here can explain.

 

[TLS Guy]

Most costly system I listened to had 350k per pair Wilson speakers, and still had subs. I think there's no system that does not benefit a lot to a little by the inclusion of quality subs correctly set up for various reasons the technically adept here can explain.

The reason is simple. It is because of the current architecture of home AV. This is related to the addition of sub outputs, with crossover and the LFE channel.

So, if you don't use a sub, you have limited bass control and quite possibly no LFE if you can't direct the LFE to the mains..

I don't know of a commercial system like mine where the main speakers can accept discrete line and sub outputs and with the BSC signal carried to the bass woofers. I am not aware of any other arrangement like that, but there could be one out there somewhere. You won't see a sub in my AV room, but if your heard it, you would think it was stuffed with them and wonder where they were hidden.

 

[Will Brink]

The reason is simple. It is because of the current architecture of home AV. This is related to the addition of sub outputs, with crossover and the LFE channel.

So, if you don't use a sub, you have limited bass control and quite possibly no LFE if you can't direct the LFE to the mains..

I don't know of a commercial system like mine where the main speakers can accept discrete line and sub outputs and with the BSC signal carried to the bass woofers. I am not aware of any other arrangement like that, but there could be one out there somewhere. You won't see a sub in my AV room, but if your heard it, you would think it was stuffed with them and wonder where they were hidden.

I was thinking 2ch music actually. For HT, is a must in my view.