DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Steve_vai_rules]

hahaha

Matt

 

[Tex-amp]

Even better would be to go back and edit old posts buried in old threads with new information.

Search function would hit the key words. You'd have to be pretty good at not using the words; raffle, charity, indictment, "underfunded", stolen, con, arrested, the actual names of the charities, etc.

Your settings on the control panel aren't search-able, as far as I know, and they'd have to go through them 1 by 1.

 

[the grunt]

You know, this entire thing has left a horrible taste in my mouth about the home audio community as a whole. It's not just what MLS has done but also the actions (or in some cases non-action) of a few forums, publications and prominent names within the industry that have or has helped this problem fester for as long as it did.

Only now after he was hauled away to jail have some come forward and spoke up against it, yet others continue to remain quiet and of course there are some that have answered the call to defend the man once again. I never would have thought when I first got into this hobby that I would see what I've seen in the past few months.

“The thief is sorry he is to be hanged, not that he is a thief”

I can't wait for the turd storm that awaits us when he makes his first public communication on the ordeal and people swallow it hook, line and sinker once again, oh sure they will ask some "hard questions" at first but MLS will bat his eyes, throw out some humbly bumblys and all will be right in their world.

In line with what you said in the highlighted part people might want to take something worthwhile out of this experience.

A con/scam succeeds not by convincing people to believe what the conman wants but instead by convincing the “mark” to feel that something they want to believe is true. The people who now feel they were duped/taken might want to do some self reflection trying to figure out what about themselves and/or their situation might have contributed to not being able to see what was really happening.

+1 to all those who pursued these issues both on and off the forums.

+1 to Audoholics for allowing this topic to remain alive. I think they deserve a lot of credit for having the guts not to cut off this discussion when everyone else did to one extent or another. Given the number of times over the years I’ve seen issues about MLS and AF123 brought up across the internet only to be shouted down by supporters I think that keeping this thread open played a pivotal roll in keeping focus on issues that in the past would have been swept under the carpet.

 

[mobileusa]

Ok, it is green now...

I realize that he now has 1 "thanks", changing the red to green, but how did the red one come about in the first place?

beats me...I have no enemies...

 

[andy_c]

A con/scam succeeds not by convincing people to believe what the conman wants but instead by convincing the “mark” to feel that something they want to believe is true. The people who now feel they were duped/taken might want to do some self reflection trying to figure out what about themselves and/or their situation might have contributed to not being able to see what was really happening.

This is a really interesting point. On the one hand, people should not feel ashamed to admit they were conned. If a con-man is very, very good, they can get away with a lot. And I mean a lot. Being conned does not imply some kind of personality defect on the part of the conned person. It's not a weakness in my view. It's more a sign of the skill of the con-man.

On the other hand, there are interesting ideas related to human nature that can be explored when examining how con-men work. Let me talk about my own personal experience, though I fortunately was not conned into buying any AV321 gear.

I'm an electrical engineer, and I got into the field because of my interest in audio in the 1970s. This was back when people like David Hafler were coming out with equipment that exchanged spartan appearance and "no more fancy than absolutely needed" industrial design for the best possible electrical performance that could be had for the price. I hold this philosophy in high esteem. But high-end audio now is all about half-inch thick front panels and fancy industrial design, often disguising mediocre electronic design, or even fraudulent design concepts based on fad rather than solid engineering. This disgusts me. Also, I am the kind of person who tends to think the worst of people. I have to catch myself constantly to prevent myself from judging those around me unjustly. I'd like to think I'm too smart to be conned. Wrong!

Now I see a video of Mark Schifter on the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity site, and I am really impressed. He invokes the memory of David Hafler, and through his explanations of how reduced costs can be realized by manufacturing in China, even while treating the workers there well, a win-win situation can be realized. I'm convinced this guy holds the key to re-living the Hafler legacy and bringing high-end audio back into the hands of the average joe the way it used to be in the 1970s. I bought into it. I thought he was actually the David Hafler of the 21st century. Basically, I bought into a total line of hogwash.

I suspect if I saw that video again, and found out the facts of all the products he was talking about, that most of these so-called products would turn out to be vaporware and BS. But I didn't have the benefit of knowing about him then, when I saw the video. And where would I get such information? From threads like this.

So to all you people out there, even the most die-hard cynics, you are not immune to being conned. And if you were conned, there is no shame in it. The shame rests entirely with the con-man.

 

[the grunt]

This is a really interesting point. On the one hand, people should not feel ashamed to admit they were conned. If a con-man is very, very good, they can get away with a lot. And I mean a lot. Being conned does not imply some kind of personality defect on the part of the conned person. It's not a weakness in my view. It's more a sign of the skill of the con-man.

Very good point that people should not feel ashamed, it only prevents one from seeing how they got hooked. And that’s what any good conman looks for is a way to hook you and some can be extremely good at it. The best are part of a small >5% of the population that can lie w/o any telltale clues. In some ways it’s very similar to the way an author, director, or any artist evokes a response in their audience by identifying and pushing the right buttons. So if you are susceptible to emotional responses to movies, music, art (i.e. if you’re human) your susceptible to being conned if the conditions are right.

 

[Steve_vai_rules]

wow, this is messed up in all kinds of way

Matt

 

[m-fine]

wow, this is messed up in all kinds of way

Matt

You don't know the half of it yet!

 

[Steve_vai_rules]

You don't know the half of it yet!

This reminds me of the kinda crap that my female friends get into.. And worse my lil' sis and her friends.. Holy HELL they get overtly dramatic!!

And yeah I doubt I know the half of it.

Matt

 

[NicolasKL]

Odd, whenever I try and view the forum at TCA I get this:

NicolasKL, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Some kind of technical malfunction, I'm sure.

 

[Stereodude]

Odd, whenever I try and view the forum at TCA I get this:

Some kind of technical malfunction, I'm sure.

No doubt...

Just delete all your cookies for the site and you'll be able to view it.

 

[T2T]

This just in ... While in the Longmont jail, Mark has been getting inspired for a new finish option for a new speaker line. Below, you'll find a mock-up of that speaker. Stay tuned for further details ...

 

[Chu Gai]

He's still in jail

SCHIFTER,MARK LAWRENCE DOB: 5/29/1956
Race: W Sex: M Hair: BRO Eyes: BRO Wgt: 235 Hgt: 5' 09"
Location: BJ MED
Booking Date:
Arrestee Address: 2849 QUARTZ WY SUPERIOR CO
Booking No: 10-01738 2/26/2010
Charge: 18-4-401(2)(D). THEFT $20,000 OR MOR F3 Arresting Agency: BCSO
Charge: 12-9-107(1) BINGO-OPERATE W/OUT M2 Arresting Agency: BCSO
Charge: 6-16-111(1)(B) CHARITABLE FRD-UNAUT F5 Arresting Agency: BCSO
Charge: 6-16-111(1)(G) CHARITABLE FRAUD-SCH F5 Arresting Agency: BCSO
Charge: 18-5.5-102(1)(A) COMPUTER CRIME-UNAUT M2 Arresting Agency: BCSO

I'm assuming that his location, BJ MED, means he's in the Boulder Jail Medical Unit and not something else. Tell your kids their lunch money is still safe.

 

[Slee_Stack]

This is a really interesting point. On the one hand, people should not feel ashamed to admit they were conned. If a con-man is very, very good, they can get away with a lot. And I mean a lot. Being conned does not imply some kind of personality defect on the part of the conned person. It's not a weakness in my view. It's more a sign of the skill of the con-man.

On the other hand, there are interesting ideas related to human nature that can be explored when examining how con-men work. Let me talk about my own personal experience, though I fortunately was not conned into buying any AV321 gear.

I'm an electrical engineer, and I got into the field because of my interest in audio in the 1970s. This was back when people like David Hafler were coming out with equipment that exchanged spartan appearance and "no more fancy than absolutely needed" industrial design for the best possible electrical performance that could be had for the price. I hold this philosophy in high esteem. But high-end audio now is all about half-inch thick front panels and fancy industrial design, often disguising mediocre electronic design, or even fraudulent design concepts based on fad rather than solid engineering. This disgusts me. Also, I am the kind of person who tends to think the worst of people. I have to catch myself constantly to prevent myself from judging those around me unjustly. I'd like to think I'm too smart to be conned. Wrong!

Now I see a video of Mark Schifter on the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity site, and I am really impressed. He invokes the memory of David Hafler, and through his explanations of how reduced costs can be realized by manufacturing in China, even while treating the workers there well, a win-win situation can be realized. I'm convinced this guy holds the key to re-living the Hafler legacy and bringing high-end audio back into the hands of the average joe the way it used to be in the 1970s. I bought into it. I thought he was actually the David Hafler of the 21st century. Basically, I bought into a total line of hogwash.

I suspect if I saw that video again, and found out the facts of all the products he was talking about, that most of these so-called products would turn out to be vaporware and BS. But I didn't have the benefit of knowing about him then, when I saw the video. And where would I get such information? From threads like this.

So to all you people out there, even the most die-hard cynics, you are not immune to being conned. And if you were conned, there is no shame in it. The shame rests entirely with the con-man.

I agree both both grunt and andy's insight here.

I suppose I wasn't conned directly since my av321 purchases were years back and I never bought any raffle tickets. I also felt I received good product for the money I expended.

However, even though I wasn't directly affected, I never questioned the raffles, or the constant delays, or the endless promises that I read about sometimes daily on their forum.

I truly believed av321 was the grail of high-end hifi for the poor man. Every other company I considered purchasing gear from was compared to the 'bar' of av321.

I suppose that makes me a sucker of sorts.

What is frustrating to me is that I am a hugely cynical person to a point of doing myself a disservice. The demise (or soon to be) of av321 is just another nail in my 'trust no-one' coffin. I really don't want to live my life that way.

Is it better just to be duped once in awhile or just question absolutely everything?

Count me among the many eyes-now-opened clueless and certainly disheartened audio-loving folk.

 

[bandphan]

I know its been mentioned before, but it still cracks me up.

 

[bobbyg1983]

I agree both both grunt and andy's insight here.

I suppose I wasn't conned directly since my av321 purchases were years back and I never bought any raffle tickets. I also felt I received good product for the money I expended.

However, even though I wasn't directly affected, I never questioned the raffles, or the constant delays, or the endless promises that I read about sometimes daily on their forum.

I truly believed av321 was the grail of high-end hifi for the poor man. Every other company I considered purchasing gear from was compared to the 'bar' of av321.

I suppose that makes me a sucker of sorts.

What is frustrating to me is that I am a hugely cynical person to a point of doing myself a disservice. The demise (or soon to be) of av321 is just another nail in my 'trust no-one' coffin. I really don't want to live my life that way.

Is it better just to be duped once in awhile or just question absolutely everything?

Count me among the many eyes-now-opened clueless and certainly disheartened audio-loving folk.

+1, just want to agree with pretty much everything that was said here.

"I truly believed av321 was the grail of high-end hifi for the poor man. Every other company I considered purchasing gear from was compared to the 'bar' of av321."

Exactly. For the last two years I have continuously spouted off about how wonderful av321 is to numerous friends and family members, and they were my go-to site whenever anyone asked for a recommendation. I attended a gtg and received my very own bear-hug from the man himself. I listened to him speak about all the wonderful things they're doing down in Columbia. I regurgitated all of this back to friends, insisting that av321 had to be about the finest company on this green earth.

As to some previous posters' comments about con men banking on people's shame to not come forward, I feel exactly that, even though I was never personally taken for any money! I had multiple friends give me the "you're obviously drinking some kind of cool-aid, there's got to be some catch here" look, and now I have to reluctantly forward this thread to them with a, "I guess you were right."

Now, to be "fair" to av321 as a company, and as Slee_Stack said, many many people actually received and are very happy with gear that way outperforms their price points; I know I could not be happier with my x-statik / x-voce setup, and I bought my cherry x-statiks way back when they were $699!! av321 HAS sparked the audiophile bug in many, and given tons of people their first taste of "hi-end" (at least not big box). I can't help but wonder if they really miscalculated just how thin they could cut their margins, contributing to the financial problems in the first place. Anyways, I don't want to speculate as to whether MLS maliciously intended to steal money outright or whether he just got caught up dipping into the kitty to try and "right the ship," intending to eventually straighten things out. I suppose the latter would make sense in terms of "borrowing" people's money through the pre-payments for products, but sort of falls apart when you look at the raffles. The raffles reek of pure sketchiness.

Anyways, the whole thing has left me pretty disenchanted, and I know I'm now forever going to approach things with a more cynical eye. I really do believe in the promise of the internet direct companies (Salk, Emotiva, Epik, Oppo, etc.), and I guess I'll just have to look for another horse to back.

 

[Matt34]

No more mention of Craig Chase. He is not welcome here so he cannot defend himself. What he says or does in his little space of the web has no bearing on this topic or Audioholics. Take it to PM.

Gene and Clint has let this thread stay here since this all started with over 300,000 views and almost 3k posts and let a lot of things slide as well as, I'm sure, taken some heat for it.. Lets respect that at the very least.

 

[silverbullet]

This is a really interesting point. On the one hand, people should not feel ashamed to admit they were conned. If a con-man is very, very good, they can get away with a lot. And I mean a lot. Being conned does not imply some kind of personality defect on the part of the conned person. It's not a weakness in my view. It's more a sign of the skill of the con-man.

On the other hand, there are interesting ideas related to human nature that can be explored when examining how con-men work. Let me talk about my own personal experience, though I fortunately was not conned into buying any AV321 gear.

I'm an electrical engineer, and I got into the field because of my interest in audio in the 1970s. This was back when people like David Hafler were coming out with equipment that exchanged spartan appearance and "no more fancy than absolutely needed" industrial design for the best possible electrical performance that could be had for the price. I hold this philosophy in high esteem. But high-end audio now is all about half-inch thick front panels and fancy industrial design, often disguising mediocre electronic design, or even fraudulent design concepts based on fad rather than solid engineering. This disgusts me. Also, I am the kind of person who tends to think the worst of people. I have to catch myself constantly to prevent myself from judging those around me unjustly. I'd like to think I'm too smart to be conned. Wrong!

Now I see a video of Mark Schifter on the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity site, and I am really impressed. He invokes the memory of David Hafler, and through his explanations of how reduced costs can be realized by manufacturing in China, even while treating the workers there well, a win-win situation can be realized. I'm convinced this guy holds the key to re-living the Hafler legacy and bringing high-end audio back into the hands of the average joe the way it used to be in the 1970s. I bought into it. I thought he was actually the David Hafler of the 21st century. Basically, I bought into a total line of hogwash.

I suspect if I saw that video again, and found out the facts of all the products he was talking about, that most of these so-called products would turn out to be vaporware and BS. But I didn't have the benefit of knowing about him then, when I saw the video. And where would I get such information? From threads like this.

So to all you people out there, even the most die-hard cynics, you are not immune to being conned. And if you were conned, there is no shame in it. The shame rests entirely with the con-man.

Would this be the video referenced? I had posted this a few weeks back and got a good chuckle out of it. http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=43268

 

[haraldo]

You know, this entire thing has left a horrible taste in my mouth about the home audio community as a whole. It's not just what MLS has done but also the actions (or in some cases non-action) of a few forums, publications and prominent names within the industry that have or has helped this problem fester for as long as it did.

Only now after he was hauled away to jail have some come forward and spoke up against it, yet others continue to remain quiet and of course there are some that have answered the call to defend the man once again. I never would have thought when I first got into this hobby that I would see what I've seen in the past few months.

“The thief is sorry he is to be hanged, not that he is a thief”

I can't wait for the turd storm that awaits us when he makes his first public communication on the ordeal and people swallow it hook, line and sinker once again, oh sure they will ask some "hard questions" at first but MLS will bat his eyes, throw out some humbly bumblys and all will be right in their world.

Thx very very much Matt, this says a lot, especially:
“The thief is sorry he is to be hanged, not that he is a thief”

If MLS is sorry about one thing, I reckon the only thing being that he got caught

 

[MinusTheBear]

I'm out. Done with this crap.

You went out with a bang. This is a such a great post! And sums up pretty much everything how I feel.

You know, this entire thing has left a horrible taste in my mouth about the home audio community as a whole . It's not just what MLS has done but also the actions (or in some cases non-action) of a few forums, publications and prominent names within the industry that have or has helped this problem fester for as long as it did.
Only now after he was hauled away to jail have some come forward and spoke up against it, yet others continue to remain quiet and of course there are some that have answered the call to defend the man once again. I never would have thought when I first got into this hobby that I would see what I've seen in the past few months.

“The thief is sorry he is to be hanged, not that he is a thief”

I can't wait for the turd storm that awaits us when he makes his first public communication on the ordeal and people swallow it hook, line and sinker once again, oh sure they will ask some "hard questions" at first but MLS will bat his eyes, throw out some humbly bumblys and all will be right in their world.