Do I really need an upgrade?

[Adam41591]

Seeing as how there seems to be so many knowledgeable people here, I thought I'd ask a pretty basic question. (like a question about audio is ever simple ) Anyway, my current setup consists of a Harman Kardon AVR-146, Infinity Beta 20 bookshelf speakers, Infinity Qe speakers used as surrounds, and a Velodyne Impact-10 subwoofer. Also using a Pioneer BDP-320 as a source player. On to my question. The new Denon AVR-591 caught my eye on the review section of the site. Now my Harman is rated at 30w per channel and lacks HDMI audio, while the Denon is rated at 75w per channel and has full HDMI audio decoding. I was told you would really only hear a difference if you double your wattage. Is this true and if so could anyone elaborate? BTW, I know some would say upgrading the speakers would be the logical next step but I'm gonna hold out for a couple years and look at Monitor Audio's high-end lineup. Besides I consider the Betas to be very good speakers for their price range, especially the CMMD drivers. Any advice would be much obliged.


Adam

P.S. here's some info for the Harman & the Beta 20's

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/harman-kardon-avr-146

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETA20BKS&CheckProduct=Y&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

Also, here's my setup if anyone is interested.
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Adam41591&folderid=3841

 

[3db]

Seeing as how there seems to be so many knowledgeable people here, I thought I'd ask a pretty basic question. (like a question about audio is ever simple ) Anyway, my current setup consists of a Harman Kardon AVR-146, Infinity Beta 20 bookshelf speakers, Infinity Qe speakers used as surrounds, and a Velodyne Impact-10 subwoofer. Also using a Pioneer BDP-320 as a source player. On to my question. The new Denon AVR-591 caught my eye on the review section of the site. Now my Harman is rated at 30w per channel and lacks HDMI audio, while the Denon is rated at 75w per channel and has full HDMI audio decoding. I was told you would really only hear a difference if you double your wattage. Is this true and if so could anyone elaborate? BTW, I know some would say upgrading the speakers would be the logical next step but I'm gonna hold out for a couple years and look at Monitor Audio's high-end lineup. Besides I consider the Betas to be very good speakers for their price range, especially the CMMD drivers. Any advice would be much obliged.


Adam

P.S. here's some info for the Harman & the Beta 20's

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/harman-kardon-avr-146

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETA20BKS&CheckProduct=Y&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

Also, here's my setup if anyone is interested.
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Adam41591&folderid=3841

My take on this is if you're happy with your system as is, why upgrade? If you're running HDMI from your blu ray player to your display, then you are already picking up High Def video. As far as the lossless audio codecs go, I still can't tell the difference from the lossless codecs and teh standard Dolby/DTS codecs which are considered lossy. Does your Blu Ray player have the capability of outputting lossless audio to the analog outs? And does your AVR have multichannel analog inputs? If yes to both, the you have access to the lossless audio codecs.

the only advantage from a sound perspective is the room corrective software. If your HK doesn't have it, you will notice an improvement in sound from your speakers. Other than that keep on rocking with the old system until you get tired of it. Then upgrade.

 

[sholling]

I have to agree with 3db - if you're happy then keep what you have, if not then it's time to upgrade.

 

[Adam41591]

Thanks for the quick response. It just seemed like so many people seem to make a big deal about HDMI lossless audio. I do have a problem with some blu-rays when they have PCM audio. I have to stick with Dolby digital, but even that sounds pretty good. Check out Kill Bill 2 on Blu-ray, that has one of the best standard Dolby tracks I've ever heard. Nails in the coffin scene anyone? BTW, that scene is probably when I fell in love with my Velodyne. Anyway, so nobody thinks that doubling the wattage makes a difference? What about the Audysey would make a difference?

 

[sholling]

Doubling the wattage should buy you 3db. Even if you don't play it any louder that's 3db of headroom. Only you know how hard you're pushing your receiver.

I happen to like several flavors of Audyssey. Audyssey Multi EQ is great for setup, Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a great feature, and Audyssey Dynamic Volume is great for taming loud commercials.

 

[Adam41591]

Doubling the wattage should buy you 3db. Even if you don't play it any louder that's 3db of headroom. Only you know how hard you're pushing your receiver.

I happen to like several flavors of Audyssey. Audyssey Multi EQ is great for setup, Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a great feature, and Audyssey Dynamic Volume is great for taming loud commercials.

Does having more headroom mean a slightly more dynamic sound? Like when you play a piece like The Firebird suite from Fantasia 2000, the HUGE climax will sound a little more powerful? Sorry if I'm not using the right words, I'm a little tired.

 

[sholling]

Does having more headroom mean a slightly more dynamic sound?

It can if you're pushing your current receiver pretty hard. Just keep in mind that receiver power ratings vary from semi-honest to outright marketing fantasies.

 

[Adam41591]

Thanks for the help. I think I'm gonna hold off on the new receiver after hearing from you guys. BTW, if you're interested I'm going to be starting a new thread called "Dynamic Records". Come check it out if you're sick of "the loudness wars"

 

[Alex2507]

I'm gonna hold off on the new receiver after hearing from you guys.

Ya ain't heard from me yet so hang onto yer hat.

Those Qe's with the Emit tweeters are very interesting but are rated at 4 Ohms and that rec'r ain't up to the task especially in tandem with the Betas which are going to be of a low sensitivity meaning that they will use up a lot of watts getting higher SPL's ... but the Emit tweeters are of particular interest to me. How do you like them? How do they sound compared to the Betas?

Your receiver's days are numbered if you're already eyeballing it but I bet your Betas would be more dynamic if you disconnected the Qe's. My guess is that the power supply in the rec'r will be freed up to power the Betas up more adequately. Sometimes less is more.

Anyway if you try it please let me know. PM me to get my attention. I'm curious to see if I'm right. Remember that we're on the honor system here.

 

[3db]

Ya ain't heard from me yet so hang onto yer hat.

Those Qe's with the Emit tweeters are very interesting but are rated at 4 Ohms and that rec'r ain't up to the task especially in tandem with the Betas which are going to be of a low sensitivity meaning that they will use up a lot of watts getting higher SPL's ... but the Emit tweeters are of particular interest to me. How do you like them? How do they sound compared to the Betas?

Your receiver's days are numbered if you're already eyeballing it but I bet your Betas would be more dynamic if you disconnected the Qe's. My guess is that the power supply in the rec'r will be freed up to power the Betas up more adequately. Sometimes less is more.

Anyway if you try it please let me know. PM me to get my attention. I'm curious to see if I'm right. Remember that we're on the honor system here.

Don't play the slippery peel with him Alex

Seriously though, if it still sounds great to the OP, and if the HK ain't running HOT, I would think that the OP's good to go. This is an HK which is either over engineered or not speced out right.

 

[Alex2507]

Don't play the slippery peel with him Alex

Seriously though, if it still sounds great to the OP, and if the HK ain't running HOT, I would think that the OP's good to go. This is an HK which is either over engineered or not speced out right.

I've seen H/K's go into auto protect without heating up so that's no indication. It only takes a second at low Ohms and high SPL's. The 146 is rated at 30 wattsx5 or 40 wattsx2 but if you pop a 4 Ohm load into the equation all bets are off with what that rec'r is really capable of. The reason I say to free up the power supply is because I have had an owner of a H/K AVR 235 tell me that he thought his system sounded better after I reduced his system down from 7.1 to 5.1. It's all about that dynamic range y'all.

I think the 146 is fine with the Beta 20's ... I mean I know it's fine with them and it would be fine with them and the other 3 channels hooked up to other Beta speakers. I just checked and their efficiency is 90 db which I think is great for a bookshelf. Still I believe that the best you can do with them in that situation is to just use them without those surrounds.

... and get a record player. ... just kidding.