Do I need to upgrade my Onkyo?!?!

[Gareth55]

Hi All - I have an older Onkyo TX SR 333 receiver (power specs below) to power my 5.1 system in my basement theater. I was wondering your opinions whether I am severely lacking in power and am not using the full potential of my system. I have relatively small speakers with high sensitivity so I thought having a lesser powered amp would be suitable. I am thinking about getting a decent Marantz/Denon/newer Onkyo receiver which can handle newer codecs if I add speakers and would have more juice. Thanks


Receiver - http://www.onkyo.ca/Products/model.php?m=TX-SR333&class=Receiver

Front L/R - Polk TSX 220B - https://www.amazon.ca/Polk-Audio-TSx-220B-Bookshelf/dp/B00CHHCD0E

Center - Polk TSX250C - https://www.amazon.ca/Polk-Audio-TSx-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00CHHCAU2/ref=pd_sim_23_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RVG090RZQ3WN4E2DTD2X

Rear - Polk R150 - https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290039

Sub - SVS PB-1000

 

[lovinthehd]

Can you turn the volume up as loud as you like without distortion/clipping? If so you're fine.

Your avr handles DTS HD MA and Dolby TrueHD already, and since you've only got a 5.1 speaker set not sure what you think you're missing.

I'd upgrade the speakers/sub before the electronics....

 

[Verdinut]

To answer your question about less powered amps, the Onkyo AVR is not very powerful and provided that your speakers are rather sensitive, it should be powerful enough with your speakers. A less powerful amp section would not be advisable, as you might face a clipping situation with some high power requirements when watching some films, and then there would be a risk of damaging your speakers.

It's always better to have some power reserve. Sound power peaks are for very short bursts of a fraction of a second and speakers should normally be able to handle such peaks at up to 3 to 4 times their power ratings without any damage. However, should a less powerful amp be required to output power which it cannot handle, then you have distortion and a risky situation as explained above.

 

[Verdinut]

Should you in the future decide to purchase a newer AVR with additional features, I would definitely suggest, as most of the Audioholics, either the Denon or the Marantz brand rather than an Onkyo product. By the way, the D & M Group that manufactures the Denon and Marantz products, is now owned by Sound United, a division of Polk Audio.

You are located in Canada as I also am. Newegg have good prices but I suggest that you also check the Gibbys Superstore website for good deals.

Cheers,

 

[yepimonfire]

If you can get enough volume without clipping the answer is no. Polk is pretty honest with their sensitivity ratings (every S&V ht lab test has measured what was claimed). Almost every speaker I’ve seen tested from Polk should really be rated as a 6ohm or 4 ohm speaker, as they spend a majority of their time in the mid bass and midrange (where a majority of sound power is located) at 4 ohms.

The onkyo measures 110w into 6 ohms and 65w into 8, this indicates there is a decent amount of current on tap and it should be able to reach at least 50w all channels driven. You didn’t mention how far your seating distance is, but at a distance of 3m, in a room with average reverberance, you should be able to achieve 100dB per channel, enough to listen -5dB from reference level (most people listen somewhere around -15dB to -5dB). Considering the impedance issue mentioned above, you should be able to get a bit more power from the receiver.

Regarding new formats such as atmos and dts x, if you have the ability to do it right (in ceiling or ceiling/ high wall mounted bookshelves), that would certainly be worth the upgrade. Since your system is already comprised of polks, if you go the atmos route, Polk OWM3s are fantastic for mounting to the ceiling with ease, and have fairly good dispersion and high sensitivity. You can find them for about $100 USD.

Judging by test results from various reviewers (audioholics and S&V), most newer denons and Yamaha’s suck in the power department, failing to provide their rated 2ch power into multiple channels. Onkyo fairs better , even across their budget lines (such as the NR-646/656), but you lose audyssey room correction if that’s important to you.

Keep in mind the difference between 65w and 100 w is a mere 2dB, hardly noticeable. If you were severely limited in headroom (as you are concerned about), you’d need to go up to 150w or even 200w to get a significant increase in output. At that point you’re looking at external amplification, as almost no receiver can provide that kind of power.

The tsx 220b is rated for 125w, however in my experience with various Polk speakers, most will take a beating at high power and high spl levels and would probably survive a 150w peak.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gareth55]

Thanks for the answers everyone! I think I will keep my current setup as I don't have any clipping however if I want to do a 7.1 or atmos then I will upgrade to Marantz (gibbys does have awesome deals!!)
question - How can I test if I'm listening at reference level?? I have a few spl meters in my phone, do I see what it reads during a loud scene??

 

[everettT]

Thanks for the answers everyone! I think I will keep my current setup as I don't have any clipping however if I want to do a 7.1 or atmos then I will upgrade to Marantz (gibbys does have awesome deals!!)
question - How can I test if I'm listening at reference level?? I have a few spl meters in my phone, do I see what it reads during a loud scene??

What size is your room and how far do you sit. Hitting reference levels will be frequency dependent. Your room, distance to the speakers and sub limits will dictate. Your not going to hit reference at 25hz more than likely. Upgrading the mains for better sound quality and sub for extension and powerband (30-60hz) will be more important than worrying about reference levels. Quality over quantity. Your sub is nice for a small room and music setup, for home theater it's gonna be lacking in all but most cases. Start with a budget for the front 3 and subs first, you can repurpose the mains to surround duty.

 

[lovinthehd]

If that avr didn't have a calibration routine and a volume scale set relative to reference level, you could check spl with a meter at your listening position and see if you're getting 85dB average, 105dB peaks with a movie recorded to that standard....

 

[Gareth55]

My room is 25ft by 11ft however the back row and main listening position is about 14 ft from the screen (106 inch). The ceiling however is quite low (6.5 ft) surprisingly the sub pressurized the room quite well and the seats will shake.
Can I use the white noise with the receiver set up to test reference? When I'm setting the speaker levels if I use a decibel meter to see what volume level gets me 85db? Does that make sense at all?

 

[lovinthehd]

Often avr built-in test tones are -30dB from peak, or 75dB, but check the manual.

 

[Pogre]

Agree with thinking a new receiver won't improve much. If you do decide to get a new one either now or down the road I would personally avoid Onkyo. I'm a fan of D&M (Denon/Marantz), though Yamaha and a couple others make competent receivers too.

 

[yepimonfire]

Thanks for the answers everyone! I think I will keep my current setup as I don't have any clipping however if I want to do a 7.1 or atmos then I will upgrade to Marantz (gibbys does have awesome deals!!)
question - How can I test if I'm listening at reference level?? I have a few spl meters in my phone, do I see what it reads during a loud scene??

I’ve never seen a phone spl meter measure accurately without calibration, and it totally ignores the bass due to lousy mics. The exception would be an iPhone, since it can come pre calibrated due to the same mic being used across phones.

I have this spl meter here and it works well for the price https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00LL3Y074/ref=mp_s_a_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1506228215&sr=8-19&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=sound+level+meter&dpPl=1&dpID=41JTjgphveL&ref=plSrch

Go into your receiver settings and into the level calibration, listen to the center channel and hold the spl meter at ear level where you sit, turn up the volume until it reads 75dB (be sure to use C weighting). That’s reference level. Generally reference level is way too loud for seating distances less than 14’ due to the lack of high frequency roll of at short distances. Most film mixers mixing in smaller room with shorter distances mix at 79dB for this reason, and it translates well to the dub stage and theater. If you want to approximate reference level in a near field setting in the same way sound engineers do, (less than 14’ to the front speakers), I would crank the volume until the meter reads 69dB C weighted. This gives you an average level of 80dB, with peaks of 100dB. Keep in mind this is 100dB per channel, and 110dB for the sub. With all speakers blaring during a heavy action scene, you could experience peak volumes of 110-120dB with the sub included. I usually listen at about -10dB from Reference, (calibrated to 65dB using -30dBfs pink noise), and I regularly measure peaks of 108dB during loud scenes with lots of bass.

Usually, your subwoofer is going to have a harder time reaching Reference levels than your speakers. Reference level requires a subwoofer capable of outputting 115dB at the mlp, if bass management is used, you need about 118dB of headroom minimum. Generally, this requires multiple subwoofers. The Dayton sub 1500 I own has a maximum peak of 105dB at a distance of 3m (where my seating is). This is just enough for listening at -10dB to -15dB at my seating position. Volumes higher than this cause the sub to bottom out.

To estimate whether your system is capable of playing at your preferred volume, I would put a good action movie on with good dynamic range (the Dark Knight is excellent for this purpose, as is interstellar), and turn the volume up to a maximum comfortable level. Now go into your level calibration settings and measure how loud the center speaker is at you seat. Add 30dB to that number, that’s your “reference” level.

Let’s say you measure 65dB, this means you need a max of 95dB output per speaker. Your fronts are 90dB @1w/1m, at 10’, you lose about 9.7dB, room reflections at about 2-3dB. For the front 3 speakers, 20w at 10’ away will provide about 96dB, to be on the safe side, we can add 3dB of headroom, which equates to 40w. I am confident your receiver is capable of providing 40wpc across all 5 speakers. The surrounds may need slightly less power, as they’re usually placed a bit closer.

In my experience, Polk speakers have no problem reaching loud volumes without breaking up, even their tiny OWM3 can go loud enough to blow me out of the room with appropriate bass management. You should have no issues reaching Reference volume with your receiver and speakers.

The PB-1000 has an ultra low bass CEA 2010 average of 113dB. Add 3dB if it’s near a wall, or 6 dB I’d placed in a corner. Assuming it’s near a wall, that’s 116dB. Subtract 10dB for a 10’ distance, that’s now 106dB for wall placement, and 109dB for comer placement. This should be enough to handle a level of -10dB, which would read 65dB on your receivers level calibration.

My favorite test for subs is the Dolby amaze demo, it’s free to download or can be watched on VUDU. Even though it’s an atmos demo, it still works on a 5.1 system. The bass during the thunderstorm part reaches 0dBfs. Turn the volume up to the level you originally found to be “comfortably loud” and play the demo, if your sub isn’t capable of handling your preferred volume, you’ll notice it quickly, either via clipping or a “clacking “ sound from the driver unloading. If it turns out it’s not enough, a second sub is in order. Placed within 1/4 wavelength, you can achieve an extra 6dB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yepimonfire]

Often avr built-in test tones are -30dB from peak, or 75dB, but check the manual.

The pink noise generator in avrs is part of the Dolby chip, and is always -30dBfs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yepimonfire]

My room is 25ft by 11ft however the back row and main listening position is about 14 ft from the screen (106 inch). The ceiling however is quite low (6.5 ft) surprisingly the sub pressurized the room quite well and the seats will shake.
Can I use the white noise with the receiver set up to test reference? When I'm setting the speaker levels if I use a decibel meter to see what volume level gets me 85db? Does that make sense at all?

In that case, the maximum in room spl is 98dB at the mlp. You cannot use white noise, in the speaker level settings of your avr, it will generate -30dBfs pink noise per Dolby specs, you want to crank the volume knob until the center channel reaches 75dB with a c weighting, then go through and adjust the level of all the rest of the speakers to 75dB. That is true reference level. Given your room size, you could easily listen that loud, and if you enjoy it that loud, yes, your avr is underpowered. Try listening with the volume turned up so the meter reads 75dB in the level calibration setting, put on a movie and see if it sounds too loud or you like it that loud. With that receiver, I would not listen louder than -10dB (65dB in the level cal) to ensure adequate headroom.

If you really intend to listen at reference volume, you need about 300w minimum. No avr can supply that. An avr with pre outs and an external pro amp, like a behringer inuke 3000 should provide enough headroom. I’m not sure if the speakers I’m question can withstand that kind of power.

If I were in your situation, rather than upgrading the Avr, I’d get some highly efficient speakers. Just throwing more power at speakers is a bad idea, sure, you might be able to get 105dB out of them, but with massive amounts of distortion and dynamic compression, assuming you don’t blow them.

Depending on your budget, speakers capable of reference levels in room with that avr are:

Klipsch rp-280f 98dB/1w1/m in room half space $850/pr open box

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-RP-280F-Reference-Premiere-Speakers-2-SPEAKERS-OPEN-BOX-EBONY-COLOR-/311948809580?epid=217552523&hash=item48a199156c:g:UcwAAOSwlV9WRR~0&_trkparms=pageci%3A4905b122-a0f9-11e7-abbc-74dbd1800b8b%7Cparentrq%3Ab2c5287a15e0ab66aea09ce8ffd0bb8d%7Ciid%3A1

Klipsch Rf-7ii 101dB in room half space

$1800/pr b stock.

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-RF-7-II-Reference-Tower-Speakers-Cherry-Finish-Pair-B-Stock-NEW-/292159255552?epid=112113382&hash=item44060c7400:g:KmoAAOxyGqZSaTzx&_trkparms=pageci%3A6cd09842-a0f9-11e7-a745-74dbd1803d44%7Cparentrq%3Ab2c6131b15e0aa4718820cb3ffd05d67%7Ciid%3A3

Any of the Klipsch heritage series, I’d recommend the forte, it has better bass extension than the Cornwall and heresy.

Klipsch thx ultra 2 KL-650 97dB 1w1m

$1700/ea. Price to value ratio on these sucks.

Powersound MTM 210t 98dB 1w1m, guessing anechoic $2150/pr

Some of the bigger cinema speakers from diy sound group, you have to build them though.

I’m sure there’s more others can add. Another option if you’re on a tight budget is pro audio speakers. Many of them actually sound decent, you could demo them at a guitar center. I’d try to look for a horn with a 90 degree horizontal pattern, narrower designs won’t work as well.

You most definitely need more sub if you intend on achieving reference levels. I’d add at least one more PB 1000. Another option would be to sell the svs and get something like a hsu vtf 15h, one or two of those could easily hit reference levels.

With Klipsch, it’s best to just use a tower for the center, but if that isn’t possible due to space constraints, the rp-450c can match the 280f, and the rc-64ii can match the rf-7.

Lastly, you could add more power via a better receiver, but as it stands now, the speakers In use will not achieve reference levels at all.

I cannot speak for other brands, however, in my room, a pair of Klipsch rp-15 (93dB in room) can play at Reference volume without any sign of distress, at a distance of 10’ with about 100wpc. They’re one of the only “consumer” brands that make speakers capable of handling those kind of dynamics and sound pressure levels.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Verdinut]

Thanks for the answers everyone! I think I will keep my current setup as I don't have any clipping however if I want to do a 7.1 or atmos then I will upgrade to Marantz (gibbys does have awesome deals!!)
question - How can I test if I'm listening at reference level?? I have a few spl meters in my phone, do I see what it reads during a loud scene??

If you want to upgrade with a Marantz AVR, I would suggest the SR7011 which is now discontinued and you most likely could get at a good discount from Gibbys. That receiver, which is last years's Flagship model, puts out 125 watts/channel -2 channels driven at 8 ohms and has a better power supply than the Onkyo and more current.

The alternative could be the SR6012 which is this year's model but with slightly less powerful amps (110W/Ch), another good buy, but a better bargain if you can catch a SR6011 which is last years model at a discounted price. An additional hint is that you can often negociate a better price than what is advertized with Gibbys. Don't hesitate.

All the above models have multi-channel pre-outs with the advantage that, should you eventually need more power for the front left and right channels for instance, you can connect an external amp to drive them. Of course, that depends on the efficiency of the speakers being driven and your volume preference.

Finally, should you decide to get external amplifiers for more power and headroom, then the Marantz SR5012 should be good enough as it also has the multi-channel pre-outs. What you save with this receiver can be used for the external amp. Then, I would suggest an affordable pro audio amp such as a QSC DCA Series amplifier to drive your front left and right speakers, with a minimum power rating of 200 watts per channel for an 8 ohm load for the less powerful model in the line.

Keep us posted on how you are making out.

Cheers,

 

[yepimonfire]

If you want to upgrade with a Marantz AVR, I would suggest the SR7011 which is now discontinued and you most likely could get at a good discount from Gibbys. That receiver, which is last years's Flagship model, puts out 125 watts/channel -2 channels driven at 8 ohms and has a better power supply than the Onkyo with more current.

The alternative could be the SR6012 which is this year's model but with slightly less powerful amps (110W/Ch), another good buy, but a better bargain if you can catch a SR6011 which is last years model at a discounted price. An additional hint is that you can often negociate a better price than what is advertized with Gibbys. Don't hesitate.

All the above models have multi-channel pre-outs with the advantage that, should you eventually need more power for the front left and right channels for instance, you can connect an external amp to drive them. Of course, that depends on the efficiency of the speakers being driven and your volume preference.

Finally, should you decide to get external amplifiers for more power and headroom, then the Marantz SR5012 should be good enough as it also has the multi-channel pre-outs. What you save with this receiver can be used for the external amp. Then, I would suggest an affordable pro audio amp such as a QSC DCA Series amplifier to drive your front left and right speakers, with a minimum of 200 watts per channel for an 8 ohm load for the less powerful model in the line.

Keep us posted on how you are making out.

Cheers,

I think more efficient speakers are a better idea than more power. Few typical consumer grade speakers can safely handle the kind of power necessary to reach reference levels without either gross distortion or worse, thermal/mechanical damage. I take power ratings with a grain of salt. Even if they were accurate, what run of the mill ht speaker can handle 300w program/1200w peak? None that I know of. Since he can currently get 98dB with his setup, going from an 89dB speaker to something that’s 95dB or more will get him into the reference level zone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Verdinut]

The OP's Onkyo is only a 5.1 channel AVR. He has thought about getting a new receiver with the more recent features, more channels and the possibility of having an EQ hardware such as the Audyssey XT/32 which he doesn't have.

His Onkyo outputs only 65 watts/ch at 8 ohms with 2 channels driven. I am not so sure that it would even provide 50 watts/ch with all channels driven. That's not much power indeed with most low efficiency hi-fi speakers and the added fact that some have low impedance figures at low frequencies, which many AVRs cannot handle.

I agree with you to the fact that higher efficiency speakers would allow higher SPLs, but I don't understand how you arrived to a 1200 watt peak figure with an hypothetical 200 to 300 watt power amp. for instance.

Of course, everything also depends on the way the speaker manufacturer calculates and publishes the power ratings, either conservative or in a more liberal way. Pro Audio speaker manufacturers used to be rather conservative in their power rating figures. I am thinking of Altec and JBL. But I don't know if that trend is still being followed.

To obtain a peak SPL of 105 dB at 14 feet, the OP would need only 150 watts/ch for the front Left & Right speakers, so a new AVR with a power rating of 125 watts/ch with 2 channels driven, should do the job. The left and right front Polk TSX-220Bs, according to their specs, will be able to handle that kind of power.

Finally, who listens to music at reference level? Even SPLs higher than 80dB can be ear damaging, as you know.