DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[monkish54]

Oh, come on. The TAD R1 is $80K, but you can probably get for $50K. That could be 560 hrs of OT for you.

*Drools*

You make 90 bucks an hour? :O

 

[Nuance AH]

*Drools*

You make 90 bucks an hour? :O

It's actually 85.7, but he said overtime, not base salary, so it's likely more like 57/HR. It's amazing how he just had to attempt to brag about himself again...

 

[brianedm]

It's actually 85.7, but he said overtime, not base salary, so it's likely more like 57/HR. It's amazing how he just had to attempt to brag about himself again...

Unless he's talking after taxes, then who really knows I know your guys' tax rates are lower than we have here

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

*Drools*

You make 90 bucks an hour? :O

Let's not talk about me. Just wanted to persuade you on studying hard in college and aiming high, unlike that Nuisance guy.

 

[Chu Gai]

Let's not talk about me. Just wanted to persuade you on studying hard in college and aiming high, unlike that Nuisance guy.

Yeah, and don't get a degree in Byzantine Architectectural Studies.

 

[Nuance AH]

Let's not talk about me. Just wanted to persuade you on studying hard in college and aiming high, unlike that Nuisance guy.

He says having been the one to turn the focus of the conversation on himself in the first place. Talk about a nuisance! LOL! And I did study hard in college, for what it's worth. You wouldn't know that though, and your pathetic accusations show the true nature of who you are. You're definitely the court jester of the forums, and your supposed salary and education means nothing here.

 

[mike c]

i don't care enough to read through the thread.
it seems the same names popping back up.
but i've said it before, i'll say it one last time ... put each other on ignore.

 

[mr littlejeans]

Unless he's talking after taxes, then who really knows I know your guys' tax rates are lower than we have here

Ain't that the truth. It's why I moved back to the states last month. At least you weren't in Ontario. I paid 46.4% income tax and then gave the government 13% on whatever I spent of the money left over.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hm, to change up the direction of this thread for a little bit, though I don't think I'll have any luck, and for the moment disregarding Chu's take on what DIY really means: has anyone heard both the (bookshelf) Overnight Sensations and the Pioneer AJ bookshelves? There is a smaller secondary system that has been going back and forth between my brother and I for the last couple/few years, and coming up this summer, I think we both will want the speakers from it this time around. So I'm looking for a new front three for either him or me. The OS flatpacks are $128 total for the pair from DIYSG, and the BS22 are $129 for the pair at Amazon. The closest thing to a comparison (which it wasn't) that I found here was this thread from the DIY forum. Thanks. Maybe I can build the kits later this year, and ummm "borrow" a pair of Pios from my local BB for a few days to compare . . . that would count as "half-azz-DIY" vs Professional?

 

[macddmac]

I ordered a pair of bs22's from BB online last night.. 90.00!
cant wait to compare them to the emp E41b's and my zaph za5.2's
cheers, Mac

 

[GO-NAD!]

No, not my efforts, your efforts. And not a concrete answer merely a reasonable guesstimate. Maybe someday there'll be some sort of a shootout with the Statements and some commercial offering.

If Jinjuku's Statements were in a shootout with a hypothetical commercial offering that cost $3000 and the consensus was that they were equally good performers, he would probably say he came out ahead, because he derived much enjoyment from the time spent on his speakers and they cost him much less than the commercial design. Would you then say "hold on, we have to add the value of the time spent on your speakers before you can claim to have come out ahead"?

Should we arbitrarily double the cost of the materials to come up with a fair market value? Use one's own salary as the basis for the calcualtion? The wage of a labourer in a Chinese speaker factory?

If the time spent on a DIY speaker is considered leisure time by the builder, how can we assign any dollar-value at all on it? If so, we should put a dollar value on reading a book or watching a movie.

Another factor to consider is whether the hours spent working on a speaker could have been spent at paid work. If one takes unpaid time off from his job to work on speakers, then yes, absolutely. It would be easy to assign a dollar value to the time spent working on those speakers. If, however, the time spent on those speakers is during off-time, i.e. there is no reasonable prospect of having earned money during that period, how can you put a dollar-value on the labour at all?

I'll say up front, that I'm in Jinjuku's corner on this one. But, I consider myself to be open-minded and if you can present a convincing argument, I won't dismiss it.

 

[Irishman]

Technically Denis Murphy is also member of this forums, but then again he is a pro and no longer qualifies as DIYer (I guess few more industry pros here and there)

and I 100% agree about the intended audience - besides these two any other AH member at best designed a subwoofer, the rest ether built from ready designs (I know I intend to someday) or not into DIY at all

I think his example is usually what can happen when your skill as a DIYer gets so good that you can actually make money doing it. So, you end up doing so. Makes sense.

 

[monkish54]

Dennis hardly makes money from Philharmonic Audio. In fact, the opposite is true. Dennis started Phil Audio for the good of the WA Philharmonic and the audio community.

Thank you, Dennis!

 

[monkish54]

Hm, to change up the direction of this thread for a little bit, though I don't think I'll have any luck, and for the moment disregarding Chu's take on what DIY really means: has anyone heard both the (bookshelf) Overnight Sensations and the Pioneer AJ bookshelves? There is a smaller secondary system that has been going back and forth between my brother and I for the last couple/few years, and coming up this summer, I think we both will want the speakers from it this time around. So I'm looking for a new front three for either him or me. The OS flatpacks are $128 total for the pair from DIYSG, and the BS22 are $129 for the pair at Amazon. The closest thing to a comparison (which it wasn't) that I found here was this thread from the DIY forum. Thanks. Maybe I can build the kits later this year, and ummm "borrow" a pair of Pios from my local BB for a few days to compare . . . that would count as "half-azz-DIY" vs Professional?

While the OS have been a huge success for Paul, I'd go with Andrew's design.

 

[jostenmeat]

^ Why, why, why, why?

 

[monkish54]

^ Why, why, why, why?

LOL

Since the tweeter is not exactly robust, Paul crosses at 4khz. That's so high even the small midwoofer he uses is probably beaming..if not, close to it.

Andrew crosses at 3khz, and uses a waveguide to match the radiation pattern of the tweeter to that of the midwoofer. This should result in better stereo imaging. As far as tonality is concerned, I think they're probably pretty similar.

Also, Andrew's British...i need no other reason!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

LOL

Since the tweeter is not exactly robust, Paul crosses at 4khz.

Isn't that B&W territory (XO 4kHz) ?

 

[jostenmeat]

A feeble tweeter is never a good thing, but at least in my application, it would be relatively nearfield, at moderate volumes. Anyway, I otherwise thought that crossing as high as 4kHz could be a good thing because it's a bit further out on the edges of the speech discrimination band. I guess some people might choose one over the other depending on the app and/or when considering the parts given to them. I will check in again later today, but if you think there is any chance that this conversation will get extended, I'm happy to start a new thread, and/or please feel free to bump up the OS thread I had linked earlier. Thanks!

 

[monkish54]

Isn't that B&W territory (XO 4kHz) ?

Hope they dont have a turf war!!

Yes it is, although, they use a 6" midrange. :O

A feeble tweeter is never a good thing.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It can handle much more power, but even the RAAL needs to be crossed above 2800hz!

Anyway, I otherwise thought that crossing as high as 4kHz could be a good thing because it's a bit further out on the edges of the speech discrimination band.

IMO, thats lame audiophile nonsense. Audiophiles don't like parts near their speakers. Simple..isn't always better. Anyway, if i were to buy into that premise, 4khz is actually where we are most sensitive!

I will check in again later today, but if you think there is any chance that this conversation will get extended, I'm happy to start a new thread,

I wouldn't worry about it. If you want to start a new thread, that's cool, but this thread has pretty much been *****ing at the author of the article and bickering amongst ourselves..might as well put the thread to good use and help someone.

EDIT:

Also the OS are VERY insensitive and have low power handling. Andrew's speakers will be able to play louder!

 

[Chu Gai]

If Jinjuku's Statements were in a shootout with a hypothetical commercial offering that cost $3000 and the consensus was that they were equally good performers, he would probably say he came out ahead, because he derived much enjoyment from the time spent on his speakers and they cost him much less than the commercial design. Would you then say "hold on, we have to add the value of the time spent on your speakers before you can claim to have come out ahead"?

Opportunity costs (doing one thing vs. another) doesn't necessarily have to come down to just money. It can be something like do you decide to go and play some video game instead of studying in which one decides for themselves the relative benefits and costs associated with each. Sometimes it's a combination of the two as it certainly appears to be in Jin's case.

Now Jin has said, at least initially, that he spent a total of about $1100 on the project. Further that it was better than any $1100 speaker out there. Now, I'm not the one saying he came out ahead. He is and to justify, rationalize, figure it out, whatever, he's setting a labor rate of $0/hr. because in part, the time with his Dad is priceless. But I'm not setting $20/hr as the monetary equivalent to time spent with his father. We can factor that out as some sort of intangible to be added after the fact. That number is nothing more than saying, had he been able to work a second part time job for those same amount of hours, what would he have earned? If it's $2800 then add it to the material cost and you get a more realistic cost for the project.

Now, let's say that the total cost was $3900 and he couldn't tell the difference between that and your hypothetical $3000 speakers. Only Jin can make the personal value judgement as to whether that was worth it. But let's say that he consistently picked the $3000 speakers over his. What then? Maybe it's still worth it and maybe he'd do it again because the value to him of time outweighs everything.

Please understand that I'm not taking a stand against DIY no more than putting in a sink yourself instead of hiring a plumber. 'Course, if that sink leaks, and you've chipped the counter top, you just might have to rethink your thought process. If not, your wife will do it for you. It's nothing more than coming up with a more realistic cost of one's speakers.

Should we arbitrarily double the cost of the materials to come up with a fair market value? Use one's own salary as the basis for the calcualtion? The wage of a labourer in a Chinese speaker factory?

No. What we do is total up the costs for materials which would include glue, stain, rags, tools such as a router, bits, blades, clamps unless he already had those in his possession. As to labor costs, that depends on the individual because each of us, should we choose, just might be able to find some sort of job after hours commensurate with our respective abilities.

Take the case of a woman who knits a scarf and it takes her 10 hours with material costs being $40. If we arbitrarily assign a $10/hr. labor rate, it cost her $140 to make that scarf. That same scarf, or shall we say a comparable one might cost $60. This DOES NOT MEAN she should abandon knitting because maybe she derives some complex personal satisfaction. Maybe it's time spent with her daughter. Maybe something else. But from a purely economic POV, she is willing to incur an economic loss for her handmade scarf because the other benefits, intangible as they may be, to her compensate for it.

If the time spent on a DIY speaker is considered leisure time by the builder, how can we assign any dollar-value at all on it? If so, we should put a dollar value on reading a book or watching a movie.

That depends on what the alternatives are and they're not the same for everyone. Nor does it necessarily involve a dollar figure as I illustrated above.

Another factor to consider is whether the hours spent working on a speaker could have been spent at paid work. If one takes unpaid time off from his job to work on speakers, then yes, absolutely. It would be easy to assign a dollar value to the time spent working on those speakers. If, however, the time spent on those speakers is during off-time, i.e. there is no reasonable prospect of having earned money during that period, how can you put a dollar-value on the labour at all?

I admit, it's a difficult matter. If you were to search for the terms leisure, opportunity, costs, you'd find there's been papers, studies, and what not published on just this thing. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to calculate it but by the same token everyone is not unilaterally assigning zero to it either.

I'll say up front, that I'm in Jinjuku's corner on this one. But, I consider myself to be open-minded and if you can present a convincing argument, I won't dismiss it.

If you've read what I've written, then you'll understand at no time am I telling him or others that what he did wasn't worth it. He's said he thinks his speakers are possibly only bettered by moving up to the 10-15K range. If that's the case, then what is there to object in my assigning a total cost of $3900? If then maybe there were other options worth considering. Work the extra time, if possible, to achieve sonic equivalence and go fishing with your Dad, or a road trip, or any number of things.