A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
I listen to TV and movies more than music, but the sound is more important to me when I listen to music and I enjoy it more. I have been playing with Hafler Quad since before home theater and matrix surround when it was VHS Hi-Fi. I am now to the point that I am tired of pushing buttons to select the right decoder for the program or source, and speakers and wire all over the place just for some gimmicky stupid sounding artificial effect. I think I prefer two channel audio to all this surround sound nonsense. I just read an interview with David Chesky and started an account on HDtracks.com. sonicscoop.com/opinionated-audio-david-chesky-on-binaural-recording-the-business-of-specialized-sound
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I listen to TV and movies more than music, but the sound is more important to me when I listen to music and I enjoy it more. I have been playing with Hafler Quad since before home theater and matrix surround when it was VHS Hi-Fi. I am now to the point that I am tired of pushing buttons to select the right decoder for the program or source, and speakers and wire all over the place just for some gimmicky stupid sounding artificial effect. I think I prefer two channel audio to all this surround sound nonsense. I just read an interview with David Chesky and started an account on HDtracks.com. sonicscoop.com/opinionated-audio-david-chesky-on-binaural-recording-the-business-of-specialized-sound
Like everything in life there is the correct and the wrong way to go about any task. It is clear to me you are on the wrong road.
 
A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
Like everything in life there is the correct and the wrong way to go about any task. It is clear to me you are on the wrong road.
My path is absolutely transparent.

Listeners hear the direction and distance to sound sources by natural auditory spatial cues Interaural Level Difference (ILD) and Interaural Time Difference (ITD). ILD due to head shadow and ear orientation are high frequency differences. ITD due to ear spacing and the different distance from each ear to sound sources are low frequency differences. ILD and ITD correlate and change consistently with the listener's head motion. Head motion differentiates directions in front of the listener from directions behind the listener that may have similar ILD and ITD cues.

Stereo:

Stereo recording is like painting. Painted images are artificial. Painting styles may be realism, impressionism, expressionism, or abstract. Stereo soundstage and imaging illusions are artificial artistic expressions of the recording engineer.

Two or more audio signal channels are mapped one audio channel to one speaker position.

Left and right ears hear natural spatial cues ILD, ITD, and head motion that locate speakers.

Any number of microphones or recorded audio tracks are mixed to audio signal channels.

Artificial stereo channel level and time differences place phantom stereophonic illusions between left and right speakers.

Artificial stereo channel level and time differences may be created electronically or by directional microphone orientation and microphone spacing.

Stereo channel time differences created by microphone spacing may exceed natural Interaural Time Difference ITD.

Close microphone perspectives do not replicate realistic distant left and right ear perspectives.

When left and right speakers are equal in level and time (L=R) and the listener is equal distance between speakers, a phantom center stereophonic illusion is heard from a direction between left and right speakers if speakers are not too far apart.

Two speakers do not sound like one speaker. A phantom center stereophonic illusion does not sound the same as one speaker between left and right speakers.

When left and right speakers are equal in level and time (L=R) and the listener is closer to one speaker, sound is heard from the direction of the closer (earlier) speaker.

The sound from the closer or earlier speaker does not sound the same as the sound from one speaker.

Amplitude cannot correct time. The stereo channel balance control cannot produce a phantom center stereophonic illusion between speakers that are not equal in time.

Natural high frequency level differences ILD and low frequency time phase differences ITD correlate. Left and right speaker time differences with no correlated high frequency level differences do not sound natural.

Natural spatial cues that locate speakers limit artificial stereophonic illusions to directions between left and right speakers. Sound is heard from the direction of one speaker or from a direction between left and right speakers. No stereo channel level or time differences can produce a phantom stereophonic illusion heard from a direction to the left of the left speaker or to the right of the right speaker or behind, above, or below the listener.

No phantom center stereophonic illusion can be heard from a direction between front and back speakers or between vertical up and down speakers. Quadraphonics and surround sound are independent front and back stereophonic illusions between left and right speaker pairs.

Phase differences are time differences. Stereo channel polarity inversion is not a natural phenomenon and does not sound natural.

Multi-channel surround sound compensates for the limitations of mapping audio channels to the audible positions of speakers with more speakers at different directions.

Stereo channel level and time differences are properties of the recording. Devices that provide identical and independent audio signal paths do not create stereo channel level or time differences heard as stereophonic soundstage and imaging illusions.

When the same audio signal (L=R) is sent to two identical amplifier channels driving identical speakers through identical speaker wires, disconnecting the audio signal from one amplifier input sounds the same as disconnecting the speaker from one amplifier output. Identical and independent amplifier channels and speaker wires do not create stereo channel level and time differences heard as stereophonic soundstage and imaging illusions.

The same audio signal (L=R) sent to two identical amplifier channels driving identical speakers through identical speaker wires sounds the same as two identical speakers driven by one amplifier channel. Identical and independent amplifier channels do not create stereo channel level and time differences heard as stereophonic soundstage and imaging illusions.

Binaural:

Binaural recording is like photography. The musical performance is the art.

Two ears are left and right. Left and right ears naturally hear all directions, horizontal and vertical.

Two microphones and two audio signal channels are mapped to left and right ears.

Two microphones simulate left and right ear directionality, directional orientation, spacing, and perspective. Binaural recording simulates natural Interaural Level Difference (ILD) and Interaural Time Difference (ITD).

Headphones isolate left and right audio channels to left and right ears.

Headphones move with the listener's head. Sound source directions in headphones move with the listener's head.

Sound passes around any acoustically small object. Acoustically small objects width is one quarter sound wavelength or less. Low frequency Interaural Level Differences do not occur naturally. Low frequency stereo channel level differences in headphones do not sound natural.

Stereo channel time differences created by spaced microphones may exceed natural Interaural Time Difference and sound unnatural in headphones.

Multi-channel surround sound may sound more exciting, but binaural sounds real. Two channel stereo and binaural require a lot less playback hardware.

Stereo crosstalk cancellation attempts to isolate the left audio channel to the left ear and the right audio channel to the right ear, like headphones, by cancelling the sound from the left speaker to the right ear and sound from the right speaker to the left ear. Crosstalk cancelation with speakers may not be complete, producing unrealistic artifacts, like some forms of 3D video. Crosstalk cancellation more strictly limits the number and position of listeners. Head motion is relative to speakers, changing cues for directions behind the listener into cues for directions in front of the listener, limiting soundstage to less than the front 180° horizontal azimuth. Like headphones, low frequency Interaural Level Differences are not natural and don't sound natural. Head shadow and ear directional orientation prevent high frequency crosstalk.
 
Last edited:
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Stereo recording is like painting. Painted images are artificial. Painting styles may be realism, impressionism, expressionism, or abstract. Stereo soundstage and imaging illusions are artificial artistic expressions of the recording engineer.
This comes to mind.

1669284515479.png
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
My path is absolutely transparent.

Listeners hear the direction and distance to sound sources by natural auditory spatial cues Interaural Level Difference (ILD) and Interaural Time Difference (ITD). ILD due to head shadow and ear orientation are high frequency differences. ITD due to ear spacing and the different distance from each ear to sound sources are low frequency differences. ILD and ITD correlate and change consistently with the listener's head motion. Head motion differentiates directions in front of the listener from directions behind the listener that may have similar ILD and ITD cues.

Stereo:

Stereo recording is like painting. Painted images are artificial. Painting styles may be realism, impressionism, expressionism, or abstract. Stereo soundstage and imaging illusions are artificial artistic expressions of the recording engineer.

Two or more audio signal channels are mapped one audio channel to one speaker position.

Left and right ears hear natural spatial cues ILD, ITD, and head motion that locate speakers.

Any number of microphones or recorded audio tracks are mixed to audio signal channels.

Artificial stereo channel level and time differences place phantom stereophonic illusions between left and right speakers.

Artificial stereo channel level and time differences may be created electronically or by directional microphone orientation and microphone spacing.

Stereo channel time differences created by microphone spacing may exceed natural Interaural Time Difference ITD.

Close microphone perspectives do not replicate realistic distant left and right ear perspectives.

When left and right speakers are equal in level and time (L=R) and the listener is equal distance between speakers, a phantom center stereophonic illusion is heard from a direction between left and right speakers if speakers are not too far apart.

Two speakers do not sound like one speaker. A phantom center stereophonic illusion does not sound the same as one speaker between left and right speakers.

When left and right speakers are equal in level and time (L=R) and the listener is closer to one speaker, sound is heard from the direction of the closer (earlier) speaker.

The sound from the closer or earlier speaker does not sound the same as the sound from one speaker.

Amplitude cannot correct time. The stereo channel balance control cannot produce a phantom center stereophonic illusion between speakers that are not equal in time.

Natural high frequency level differences ILD and low frequency time phase differences ITD correlate. Left and right speaker time differences with no correlated high frequency level differences do not sound natural.

Natural spatial cues that locate speakers limit artificial stereophonic illusions to directions between left and right speakers. Sound is heard from the direction of one speaker or from a direction between left and right speakers. No stereo channel level or time differences can produce a phantom stereophonic illusion heard from a direction to the left of the left speaker or to the right of the right speaker or behind, above, or below the listener.

No phantom center stereophonic illusion can be heard from a direction between front and back speakers or between vertical up and down speakers. Quadraphonics and surround sound are independent front and back stereophonic illusions between left and right speaker pairs.

Phase differences are time differences. Stereo channel polarity inversion is not a natural phenomenon and does not sound natural.

Multi-channel surround sound compensates for the limitations of mapping audio channels to the audible positions of speakers with more speakers at different directions.

Stereo channel level and time differences are properties of the recording. Devices that provide identical and independent audio signal paths do not create stereo channel level or time differences heard as stereophonic soundstage and imaging illusions.

When the same audio signal (L=R) is sent to two identical amplifier channels driving identical speakers through identical speaker wires, disconnecting the audio signal from one amplifier input sounds the same as disconnecting the speaker from one amplifier output. Identical and independent amplifier channels and speaker wires do not create stereo channel level and time differences heard as stereophonic soundstage and imaging illusions.

The same audio signal (L=R) sent to two identical amplifier channels driving identical speakers through identical speaker wires sounds the same as two identical speakers driven by one amplifier channel. Identical and independent amplifier channels do not create stereo channel level and time differences heard as stereophonic soundstage and imaging illusions.

Binaural:

Binaural recording is like photography. The musical performance is the art.

Two ears are left and right. Left and right ears naturally hear all directions, horizontal and vertical.

Two microphones and two audio signal channels are mapped to left and right ears.

Two microphones simulate left and right ear directionality, directional orientation, spacing, and perspective. Binaural recording simulates natural Interaural Level Difference (ILD) and Interaural Time Difference (ITD).

Headphones isolate left and right audio channels to left and right ears.

Headphones move with the listener's head. Sound source directions in headphones move with the listener's head.

Sound passes around any acoustically small object. Acoustically small objects width is one quarter sound wavelength or less. Low frequency Interaural Level Differences do not occur naturally. Low frequency stereo channel level differences in headphones do not sound natural.

Stereo channel time differences created by spaced microphones may exceed natural Interaural Time Difference and sound unnatural in headphones.

Multi-channel surround sound may sound more exciting, but binaural sounds real. Two channel stereo and binaural require a lot less playback hardware.

Stereo crosstalk cancellation attempts to isolate the left audio channel to the left ear and the right audio channel to the right ear, like headphones, by cancelling the sound from the left speaker to the right ear and sound from the right speaker to the left ear. Crosstalk cancelation with speakers may not be complete, producing unrealistic artifacts, like some forms of 3D video. Crosstalk cancellation more strictly limits the number and position of listeners. Head motion is relative to speakers, changing cues for directions behind the listener into cues for directions in front of the listener, limiting soundstage to less than the front 180° horizontal azimuth. Like headphones, low frequency Interaural Level Differences are not natural and don't sound natural. Head shadow and ear directional orientation prevent high frequency crosstalk.
@TLS Guy @lovinthehd @MrBoat
To the OP:
If you wish to lecture @TLS Guy on the technical aspects of listening to music, you my brand new AH member, have picked the wrong guy to try that approach with. If you wish to try and match technical systems expertise with someone here, again, you picked the wrong guy in @TLS Guy to try that. If there is one guy here who will give you his honest, blunt, exceedingly blunt at times, opinion its him. Read his bio at the end of his note. Look at his equipment. Take a quick scan of the type of material he posts. His opinions are solid.

To quote Jim Croce,
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger
And you don't mess around with him
(my edit)

I think your idea of going to stereo 2.0 or 2.1 is solid. Made that same choice myself a decade ago. Many here favor the simple joy of stereo. "Don't go to stereo" is not what @TLS Guy said. He said he didn't care for your approach. I would have to agree. Starting off with a lecture on listening to a crowd that does it everyday is a suboptimal approach.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Samurai
I happened on modern audio when it came time to replace my 40 year old equipment. I slid down some rabbit holes, until I realized I had not been missing much, or that was not what sent me researching in the first place.

No other heavenly, quantum physics, or parallel universe effects needed. I was simply now able to afford more headroom with even lower distortion than ever for the price. Speakers now have more reliable measurements, and more refined crossovers.

12" SEOS in a BR with 12" paper cones and I'm there, along with two Dayton 12" reference series subs. It's 8:58 am on a Sunday, and I am ready for music. Starting out with "Chant" by Fourplay. :D

 
}Fear_Inoculum{

}Fear_Inoculum{

Senior Audioholic
I'm still trying to puzzle out that train wreck of an OP. What exactly was the TS point? Is he implying that surround sound sucks for music, or that 2 channel is better for movies?

This line also has me confused:

I am now to the point that I am tired of pushing buttons to select the right decoder for the program or source

I'm wondering what type of archaic equipment he's using that you need to do that? Modern AV equipment automatically selects the right decoder.

And that wall of text copy/paste 2nd post made me throw up a little bit in my mouth.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
I'm still trying to puzzle out that train wreck of an OP. What exactly was the TS point? Is he implying that surround sound sucks for music, or that 2 channel is better for movies?

This line also has me confused:

I am now to the point that I am tired of pushing buttons to select the right decoder for the program or source

I'm wondering what type of archaic equipment he's using that you need to do that? Modern AV equipment automatically selects the right decoder.

And that wall of text copy/paste 2nd post made me throw up a little bit in my mouth.
That is all standard practice for OP based on his responses in other threads.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The OP is fine to have his own opinion on how he wants to listen to audio, but I read the article (from 2015) which he posted, and one of the most important statements about it is this: "I really believe that after two microphones, things go downhill for an acoustic recording. If you’re doing a rap or metal thing, anything goes."

It's such a limited technology. I can see if someone LOVES jazz or loves acoustic, then listening ON HEADPHONES a binaural recording can certainly deliver a very good experience. Maybe, to them, the best experience they could ever hope for.

But, this has nothing to do with so many other forms of music which so many of us enjoy and love. It has nothing to do with movies and surround sound. It has nothing to do with the social aspect of listening with others.

It's NOT wrong what he is saying, but is is a very limited and microscopic aspect of audio and listening to not just music, but audio in general.
 
A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
"Don't go to stereo" is not what @TLS Guy said. He said he didn't care for your approach. I would have to agree. Starting off with a lecture on listening to a crowd that does it everyday is a suboptimal approach.
No, @TLS Guy said:

Like everything in life there is the correct and the wrong way to go about any task. It is clear to me you are on the wrong road.
That sounds to me like ridiculing my decision to return to two channel stereo, not a critical analysis.

I am new to Audioholics, and discussion groups, but I have been an audio hobbyist for about 47 years and avid reader of audio publications well before the Internet and World Wide Web was accessible to the public. I make my own recordings. I have studied human hearing as much as audio electronics.

I don't know @TLS Guy. I don't know his reputation. So far, he doesn't impress me.

Two experts that I read and trust but don't always agree with are: Rod Elliott and Ethan Winer.

I was told by another member that I was allowed to express my opinion on this forum, as long as I was able to justify it. I expressed my opinion, and justified it. Judging by the replies to my expression of my opinion, this group does not want really discuss audio. Many members like are just trolls like the members of other discussion groups that I have left.

I acknowledge that I may have picked the wrong forum.
 
A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
The OP is fine to have his own opinion on how he wants to listen to audio, but I read the article (from 2015) which he posted, and one of the most important statements about it is this: "I really believe that after two microphones, things go downhill for an acoustic recording. If you’re doing a rap or metal thing, anything goes."

It's such a limited technology. I can see if someone LOVES jazz or loves acoustic, then listening ON HEADPHONES a binaural recording can certainly deliver a very good experience. Maybe, to them, the best experience they could ever hope for.

But, this has nothing to do with so many other forms of music which so many of us enjoy and love. It has nothing to do with movies and surround sound. It has nothing to do with the social aspect of listening with others.

It's NOT wrong what he is saying, but is is a very limited and microscopic aspect of audio and listening to not just music, but audio in general.
Thank you. There is a member of this group who wants to talk substance.

Yes, there are other types of music other than classical or jazz or other types of acoustic music.

You can't argue about realism from your audio system, especially spatial realism, if the recording you are listening to never existed in reality as sound except as the output from the engineer's monitor speakers. You can't argue that close microphone perspectives sound like reality. You can't argue that the sound is wrong if you don't know what it really sounds like.

You can listen to binaural recordings on speakers. You can listen to two speakers as a group if you accept the compromise.

My best recordings were made with a near-coincident microphone pair. Pseudo-binaural.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
No, @TLS Guy said:



That sounds to me like ridiculing my decision to return to two channel stereo, not a critical analysis.

I am new to Audioholics, and discussion groups, but I have been an audio hobbyist for about 47 years and avid reader of audio publications well before the Internet and World Wide Web was accessible to the public. I make my own recordings. I have studied human hearing as much as audio electronics.

I don't know @TLS Guy. I don't know his reputation. So far, he doesn't impress me.

Two experts that I read and trust but don't always agree with are: Rod Elliott and Ethan Winer.

I was told by another member that I was allowed to express my opinion on this forum, as long as I was able to justify it. I expressed my opinion, and justified it. Judging by the replies to my expression of my opinion, this group does not want really discuss audio. Many members like are just trolls like the members of other discussion groups that I have left.

I acknowledge that I may have picked the wrong forum.
I can agree with a lot of what you have said and I will add this, if you have in fact been around the game for 47 years, internet, web and all and haven't become 'thick skinned' to the usual call outs on various forums then you never will ! ;)
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I listen to TV and movies more than music, but the sound is more important to me when I listen to music and I enjoy it more. I have been playing with Hafler Quad since before home theater and matrix surround when it was VHS Hi-Fi. I am now to the point that I am tired of pushing buttons to select the right decoder for the program or source, and speakers and wire all over the place just for some gimmicky stupid sounding artificial effect. I think I prefer two channel audio to all this surround sound nonsense. I just read an interview with David Chesky and started an account on HDtracks.com. sonicscoop.com/opinionated-audio-david-chesky-on-binaural-recording-the-business-of-specialized-sound
Sometimes these days I cannot even remember the sequence of operations to be able to just listen to iTunes in stereo, much less Spatial Audio. At any rate seems your experience with recorded music is driving your preferences for how it’s delivered. Nothing wrong with that.
 

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