Discovering 2-Channel

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cornelius

Full Audioholic
I run 2 channel for music and movies - I like the simplicity, on many levels. I've found that a really great pair of speakers can get you deep into the mix of film (including dialogue, even without a ctr channel).
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
Count me in as one of the people who have a separated, semi-dedicated room for two channel listening -- I used to have no choice but to keep one common system for both HT and music, but in our new house, we were able to set aside a room just for critical music listening.

I agree with those who have said there's nothing like music in two channel -- sure, some recordings sound kinda cool in "Pro Logic II Music" mode or something like that, but nothing beats a good two channel setup for listening to a stereo CD or vinyl recording.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Hey --

Some of you guys talking about your "dedicated separate two channel rooms/systems" how about some pics?
 
C

Caveman1

Audiophyte
I am quite opinionated on this subject, so I hope no one here gets offended.

IMO, 2-channel audio is one of the best ways to go (of course with a subwoofer hooked up as well). 2-channel audio is great for music and that's the basic thing audio systems are for. Having speakers in multiple rooms in a house so everyone can hear the same music can be great as well, but that's a different subject altogether.

5.1, 7.1, etc, surround systems are messy with speakers everywhere (in the same room) and just look tacky. And now don't they have 9.1 and are coming out with 10.2 and 22.2? Gimme a break! I can't imagine how much of a mess those are! IMO, that stuff is fine for movie theaters but ridiculous to have at home.

I think movie theaters actually need surround sound much more because they are much larger spaces compared to peoples' living rooms and therefore people can hear sounds better in movie theaters with all those speakers everywhere. So there is an actual practical use for surround sound systems in movie theaters, but not at home.

At home, I would much rather hear Beethoven's 9th Symphony properly through a 2-channel system than watch and listen to really loud and "in-your-face" sound effects from some cheesy movie like "Transformers". IMO, movie sound effects that are too loud or "in-your-face" are nothing but annoying. On the other hand, good music can sound great even when played at high volumes. A good quality 2-channel stereo system has loud enough sound effects for any movie without being annoying.

I just don't buy into the whole "immersive" surround sound thing. IMO, 5.1, 7.1, etc. are just too gimmicky for home use. 2-channel audio is time-tested and here to stay.
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I am quite opinionated on this subject, so I hope no one here gets offended.

IMO, 2-channel audio is the only way to go (of course with a subwoofer hooked up as well). 2-channel audio is better for music and that's the basic thing audio systems are for. 5.1, 7.1, etc, surround systems are messy with speakers everywhere and just look tacky. And now don't they have 9.1 and are coming out with 10.2 and 22.2? Gimme a break! I can't imagine how much of a mess those are! IMO, that stuff is fine for movie theaters but ridiculous to have at home.

I think movie theaters actually need surround sound much more because they are much larger spaces compared to peoples' living rooms and therefore people can hear sounds better in movie theaters with all those speakers everywhere. So there is an actual practical use for surround sound systems in movie theaters, but not at home.

At home, I would much rather hear Beethoven's 9th Symphony properly through a 2-channel system than watch and listen to really loud and "in-your-face" sound effects from some cheesy movie like Transformers. IMO, movie sound effects that are too loud or "in-your-face" are nothing but annoying. A regular good quality 2-channel stereo system has loud enough sound effects for any movie without being annoying.

I just don't buy into the whole "immersive" surround sound thing. IMO, 5.1, 7.1, etc. are just too gimmicky for home use. 2-channel audio is time-tested and here to stay.
Once you hear a good lossless mch classical music concert bluray on an adequately setup mch system, I bet you will change your mind.

I have a mch and stereo system, and almost exclusively listen to classical music. Though I'm starting to listen to a tad more jazz than usual again. Reminds me, I got to find this Bobby Hutcherson recording I heard on the radio earlier this week . . .

OK, I found it, crap it's expensive! It's called San Francisco. I really enjoyed the harmonies on whatever tune was playing. Vibes players can make such cool voicings/harmonies, as I'm reminded of an old Gary Burton recording as well . . .

 
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C

Caveman1

Audiophyte
Once you hear a good lossless mch classical music concert bluray on an adequately setup mch system, I bet you will change your mind.

I have a mch and stereo system, and almost exclusively listen to classical music. Though I'm starting to listen to a tad more jazz than usual again. Reminds me, I got to find this Bobby Hutcherson recording I heard on the radio earlier this week . . .

OK, I found it, crap it's expensive! It's called San Francisco. I really enjoyed the harmonies on whatever tune was playing. Vibes players can make such cool voicings/harmonies, as I'm reminded of an old Gary Burton recording as well . . .

I've listened to a classical music CD in a Best Buy Magnolia room all set up perfectly with surround sound and it just sounded odd. Sounds coming from all sorts of weird directions. That's why surround sound is never preferred over 2-channel audio for music.

Sorry, but you are just not going to convince me that surround sound systems have any merit in a home environment.

Like I said before, a system with speakers in multiple rooms in a house playing the same music can sound great, but that is not surround sound.

IMO, surround sound systems are simply tacky and gimmicky.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I've listened to a classical music CD in a Best Buy Magnolia room all set up perfectly with surround sound and it just sounded odd. Sounds coming from all sorts of weird directions. That's why surround sound is never preferred over 2-channel audio for music.

Sorry, but you are just not going to convince me that surround sound systems have any merit in a home environment.

Like I said before, a system with speakers in multiple rooms in a house playing the same music can sound great, but that is not surround sound.

IMO, surround sound systems are simply tacky and gimmicky.
See, you are simply not understanding a damn thing I'm trying to say. You don't even have the nomenclature down.

A CD is two channel stereo. A mch bluray classical concert typically has a 6 channel lossless recording on it.

The reason why the LOSSLESS 2 ch stereo track on classical DVDs always sounded better than the mch track is because the latter were LOSSY!!

I am not saying run a mono track on a stereo system, I am not saying run a 3ch SACD on a 5.1 system, I am saying run a classical recording in 5.1 on a 5.1 system.

I am going to search your other posts and decide quickly if you are a troll deserving of 10 red chiclets. BRB.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I am quite opinionated on this subject...
Evidently! :rolleyes: :D

I've listened to a classical music CD in a Best Buy Magnolia room all set up perfectly with surround sound and it just sounded odd. Sounds coming from all sorts of weird directions. That's why surround sound is never preferred over 2-channel audio for music.
It is understandable that you like hearing music played back in 2-channels when it was originally recorded and mastered in 2-channel. Using one of the multichannel playback formats that take a 2-channel source such as a CD, and synthesize 3 to 5 additional channels often does sound odd or wrong.

Using the same thinking, movies that are originally mastered with 5 discrete audio channels sound best when played back that way. It seems to me that you haven't really heard that in your own home. With 2-channel playback for even a standard DVD with Dolby Digitial or DTS soundtrack, you will miss a lot of the potential audio content. I'm not speaking of silly action movies loaded with audio gimmicks. I am talking of greater dynamic range, greater clarity, and an audibly improved signal to noise ratio.

I am going to search your other posts and decide quickly if you are a troll deserving of 10 red chiclets. BRB.
:D LOL :D
 
digicidal

digicidal

Full Audioholic
I am going to search your other posts and decide quickly if you are a troll deserving of 10 red chiclets. BRB.
In my best Spinal Tap imitation... "But these chiclets go to ELEVEN" (and I believe all of his posts are in this thread actually).

I completely agree with Caveman about IIPLx or whatever it is that Dolby uses to totally destroy 2ch audio to make it come out of a 5.1 system supposedly 'better' - tried it once and determined I'd never try it again. However, I too had to laugh about the disgruntled "I listened to a CD properly on a surround system"... kind of like saying "I've listened to an 8-Track on a DAT player and it wasn't anything special". :p

However, I've actually listened to the real thing (i.e. SACD/DVD-A/BD multichannel audio) on surround systems and although I would agree that it is very impressive - to me it's only slightly more compelling than 3D TVs are. It's fun to experiment with - but it doesn't bring that much more to the experience of enjoying the recording. I'm not saying it doesn't bring something more in some cases (particularly orchestral pieces where I feel it does help in expanding the soundstage to a scope that at least approaches that of a concert hall).

I also have a dedicated 2ch setup (actually 2 of them) and I much prefer listening to music on them to my HT setup. Although in my case that's not a good representation of true "surround sound" since when I upgraded my HT setup I actually downgraded from 5.1 to 3.2. The layout of the room simply made it too much of a PITA to mess with surround channels - however, I have friends with very good 5/7ch implementations that I've listened to multichannel audio on as a comparison when I was initially trying to decide on my next set of upgrades.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
See, you are simply not understanding a damn thing I'm trying to say. You don't even have the nomenclature down.

A CD is two channel stereo. A mch bluray classical concert typically has a 6 channel lossless recording on it.

Take it easy ... You don't have to come across as an ahole to make your point.


To Caveman....

I like my CDs and vinyl in 2 channel sound. Studio recordings are better served in 2 channel than multichannel IHO. Live perfomances however maybe have a new dimension added to them in multichannel as it allows the ambience of the venue to shine through much better than a two channel system. I have to listen to a multichannel recording of a classical concert. All the classical concerts I attended were in a hall dedicated to music reporduction and lots of work went into he acoustics controlling reflections. Thats why I think in veneus like this that I still prefer stereo over 2 channel. Rock concerts in poorly treated venues would sound more realistic with multichannel than stereo.

For movies, I still maintain that even modest multichannel systems like mine (as Josten eluded too in an earlier post in this thread :rolleyes: ) will still crush a much more expensive 2 channel system when it comes to movies (DVD and BluRay) . Sound imersion requires sources all around the listener. Case in point... Master & Commander. I was in the hold of a schooner while she was sailing and I heard creaks and groans all around me. A two channel system can never reproduce the realism of this like a multichannel system can.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think 2.0 movies/music is just fine.

I think 5.1 movies/music is just fine.

Everyone is different.

There is no right or wrong here.

I've listened to 5.1 SACD/DVD-5 in 5.1, and I've listened to these same discs in 2.0. Personally, I prefer to listen to them in 2.0 even when I had a 5.1 system. That is just my personally tastes.

Some people prefer simplicity 2.0, and some people prefer 5.1, 7.1, or 9.1, etc.

Recently I've been watching all my movies in 2.0.

My main concern was the center channel dialogue. Will it be crystal clear in 2.0?

So far, the dialogue is absolutely crystal clear. I'm pleased with 2.0 for both music and movies.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Take it easy ... You don't have to come across as an ahole to make your point.
I thought I already made my point; I was repeating myself unnecessarily due to the poster failing to pay attention, or having a lack of knowledge combined with a failure to investigate what I had explicitly typed out, or from being a troll, or some combination of the above.

I was calm. If I am to be called an Ahole, then might as well say what I really mean, right? Maybe I shouldn't! :eek:
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I think 2.0 movies/music is just fine.

I think 5.1 movies/music is just fine.

Everyone is different.

There is no right or wrong here.

I've listened to 5.1 SACD/DVD-5 in 5.1, and I've listened to these same discs in 2.0. Personally, I prefer to listen to them in 2.0 even when I had a 5.1 system. That is just my personally tastes.

Some people prefer simplicity 2.0, and some people prefer 5.1, 7.1, or 9.1, etc.

Recently I've been watching all my movies in 2.0.

My main concern was the center channel dialogue. Will it be crystal clear in 2.0?

So far, the dialogue is absolutely crystal clear. I'm pleased with 2.0 for both music and movies.
I don't think anyone is arguing preference, how can you? If 5.1 is not superior to 2.1, then I suppose 2.0 is not superior to 1.0 in your opinion?

You guys have to hear Act IV of the Carmen performance that TLS Guy raved about. You just can't get that with a stereo system. Orchestral concerts, the stage/ambience and even imaging for most is going to be better. I just rewatched my Brandeburg Concerti in 5.1 PCM; you just can't get that on a stereo system. I own many, many violin recordings, and my Karajan Tribue, I don't have anything that can sound like that with my stereo system. Btw, my stereo speakers are worth more than my 7.1 combined. Both rooms are treated, and the LR where the stereo is has better acoustics to start with (but the HT got more drastic measures).
 
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Caveman1

Audiophyte
Again, I am just stating my opinion and not trying to offend anyone on these forums.

An my opinion is: Blu-ray or DVD-A or not, surround sound 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc, is just plain dumb in a home environment. However, 2-channel audio is tried, tested, practical, sounds great, and will be around for a very long time. Meanwhile, companies will probably keep adding more and more speakers to surround sound systems to make them as messy and impractical as possible.
 
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jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Again, I am just stating my opinion and not trying to offend anyone on these forums.

An my opinion is: Blu-ray or DVD-A or not, surround sound 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc, is just plain dumb in a home environment. However, 2-channel audio is tried, tested, practical, sounds great, and will be around for a very long time. Meanwhile, companies will probably keep adding more and more speakers to surround sound systems to make them as messy and impractical as possible.
I use an acoustically transparent screen on a false wall in a dedicated theater. You can't see any of the front three speakers, all hidden. The three are identical, vertically arrayed, on the same height, with a double digit feet spread between mains so that perhaps my dispersion patterns aren't messing each other up too much. The screen and wall were DIY, and the center tower speaker was a reclamation project requiring new driver and xover.

I absolutely prefer my stereo CDs on my stereo system, and most of the music I own is on stereo CDs, not even close by a long shot. It is still IMO that it isn't even close between a well mastered mch lossless classical music track and a well mastered stereo CD track. Even with classical music where good mastering is much more typical do I find that a lot of orchestral recordings in particular still have a contrived sense of space and imaging. I'm not sure how or why it's done, but I might be led to believe it is due to hybrid micing techniques rather than minimal micing techniques. OTOH, the mch classical tracks, it's like "holy crap"!
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Again, I am just stating my opinion and not trying to offend anyone on these forums.

An my opinion is: Blu-ray or DVD-A or not, surround sound 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc, is just plain dumb in a home environment. However, 2-channel audio is tried, tested, practical, sounds great, and will be around for a very long time. Meanwhile, companies will probably keep adding more and more speakers to surround sound systems to make them as messy and impractical as possible.
Maybe you could define dumb. What is it you don't like about surround sound? Is striclty music you are talking about or is it movies as well? I gave a real life example with a movie where surround sounds actually recreated and with unnerving accuracy, the creaks and groan of a tall ship while in the hold. I don't define realism as dumb. Be a little more articulate so we can understand why you feel the way you do.

Is just the number of speakers one has to have? Is it the ever changing technology? I think that we've reached or nearly reached our limits with surround speakers. Whatever benefits these additional speakers bring like the dolby IIx (the height ones??) in and above 7.1 would be extremely small compared to that of going from 2 channel to even 5.1.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I thought I already made my point; I was repeating myself unnecessarily due to the poster failing to pay attention, or having a lack of knowledge combined with a failure to investigate what I had explicitly typed out, or from being a troll, or some combination of the above.

I was calm. If I am to be called an Ahole, then might as well say what I really mean, right? Maybe I shouldn't! :eek:
I'm not calling you one and I can understand your fustration.. I just wouldn't have responded and saved myself the fustration..let someone else wear away at him for a while and come in and clean up afterwards. ;)
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Just wanted to chime in with a couple of more points without submitting to the deluge of **** that has been yet again stirred up in here (mods, where are you?)...

I am quite opinionated on this subject, so I hope no one here gets offended.
It's okay to be opinionated -- but let's be clear, as with everyone, that it's our personal opinions we're speaking of here, and that we all have a right to voice one. :) Many will agree, many will disagree, but we can express these sentiments comfortably knowing that they're just opinions and viewpoints on another's opinions.

IMO, 2-channel audio is one of the best ways to go (of course with a subwoofer hooked up as well). 2-channel audio is great for music and that's the basic thing audio systems are for. Having speakers in multiple rooms in a house so everyone can hear the same music can be great as well, but that's a different subject altogether.
I agree that a single room with two speakers (and possibly a sub -- which I don't feel is absolutely critical as you seemingly do so long as the mains are of decent enough full-range capabilities) is the right way to do serious 2-channel -- it's the way I do it and have always done it, with a listening seat/chair directly between two speakers, a rack of stereo gear in the middle and a nice stereo image, and I never agreed with piping in music to a house via one receiver or amp where six different family members could listen to 60 different sources at once; there's just something odd about that.

5.1, 7.1, etc, surround systems are messy with speakers everywhere (in the same room) and just look tacky. And now don't they have 9.1 and are coming out with 10.2 and 22.2? Gimme a break! I can't imagine how much of a mess those are! IMO, that stuff is fine for movie theaters but ridiculous to have at home.
Two different issues here -- first of all, 5.1 etc. systems do not have to look "tacky" or "messy" with "speakers everywhere;" our 5.1 setup is as clean as can be, with two large towers for front main channel duty sitting flush and neat against a wall unit/entertainment center with NO wires or cables showing, and our surround channels are up in the ceiling, so there's NO "mess" to the install whatsoever. My point is that these rooms set up for surround sound don't have to look messy or tacky.

The second element to your statement has some validity in it -- that is, the amount of speakers for a home entertainment arrangement has gotten ridiculous and out of hand already. Receiver manufacturers want us to buy their models which are boasting more and more channel support with each passing model succession, but there's still NO software support for these setups -- in other words, 99% of Blu-ray and DVD titles released STILL only carry 5.1 channel soundtracks, and although many HT enthusiasts will argue that the end user can "matrix" these 5.1 tracks through more channels, and "spread" them through additional speakers via certain modes, I don't buy it.

As soon as my Onkyo 605 was released, it became almost obsolete in that the next generation model was already adding "height" channels and other nonsense, which suggests a bigger stage could be experienced in your room by adding more speakers above the main channels and on and on...it never seems to end. So I agree with that.

I think movie theaters actually need surround sound much more because they are much larger spaces compared to peoples' living rooms and therefore people can hear sounds better in movie theaters with all those speakers everywhere. So there is an actual practical use for surround sound systems in movie theaters, but not at home.
This thinking is a bit skewed, but I don't have time right this minute to explain why -- in a nutshell, the concept of home theater is designed to recreate the theater experience in your living room or dedicated home space, so there isn't just use for this in a large multiplex...

At home, I would much rather hear Beethoven's 9th Symphony properly through a 2-channel system than watch and listen to really loud and "in-your-face" sound effects from some cheesy movie like "Transformers". IMO, movie sound effects that are too loud or "in-your-face" are nothing but annoying.
Well, this is just complete personal perspective and preference.

On the other hand, good music can sound great even when played at high volumes. A good quality 2-channel stereo system has loud enough sound effects for any movie without being annoying.

I just don't buy into the whole "immersive" surround sound thing. IMO, 5.1, 7.1, etc. are just too gimmicky for home use. 2-channel audio is time-tested and here to stay.
Two different worlds at play here -- there will always be a place for two channel music listening...dedicated, pure, honest and the way music was MEANT to be experienced and enjoyed. HOME THEATER does have its merits -- when you want to sit down and check your brain at the door with a senseless action film, there's nothing like cranking up a well-mixed DTS, Dolby Digital or lossless soundtrack through a multichannel system and getting fully immersed in the experience. But these are two different concepts that have a place in their own ways.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We can argue all day long with The Audio Critic's Peter Aczel and Siegfried Linkwitz about whether 5.1 is better than 2.0 for 5.1 SACD/DVD-A, and I guarantee you they will say that 2.0 sounds BETTER than 5.1.

And I'm pretty sure they have tons of 5.1 SACDs and they have been to tons of live symphonies and concertos to compare.

I don't think anyone has been able to create a 3D soundstage and image in mono 1.0.

But Peter Aczel and Siegfried Linkwitz are both completely convinced that 2.0 can create an even better 3D soundstage than 5.1.

So to me, it is just a matter of preference.

Sometimes I wonder why Sony's SDDS never made to the consumer market.

More channels and more speakers is better right?

As Caveman1 eluded to, I can see why they would put lots of speakers for screens that measure 72 feet wide.

But for those of us with screens that measure 72 inches wide, 2.0 speakers will produce a very nice 3D soundstage and image.

It sounds like I'm defending 2.0 over 5.1, but I'm not.:D

I'm planning on going back to 5.0 or 5.1 in the future just because I love to see that DTS-HD MA light up that LCD on my Denon AVP-A1.:D

I'm just saying it's pure preference.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Built my HT. Use it. Love it.

Working on my 2-channel rig. Started with 300WPC. Sounded incredible.

Currently repairing a second amp I got burnt on. It's no big deal, been burnt before.

Will be bi-amping each speaker with 600 available watts each.

It's a beautiful thing.:D
 
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