Discounted housing and health care

ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
It's an amazing and scary time to be a citizen. Could this be this generations "depression"? I don't know.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
You gotta love it. We debate the universal healthcare issue which has a price tag of about $150 billion per year which many call socialism, but the financial sector gets socialized right under our noses.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
There are people a whole lot smarter than me making those decisions and I have to believe they're doing what they think is best.
That is what was said about the people that messed everything up in the first place... Ironic don't you think?
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
You gotta love it. We debate the universal healthcare issue which has a price tag of about $150 billion per year which many call socialism, but the financial sector gets socialized right under our noses.
I don't see the correlation. This bail out isn't the same type of beast that universal health care would be. I personally think this plan is better than universal health care anyway.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
That is what was said about the people that messed everything up in the first place... Ironic don't you think?
Sorda, I certainly see your point, but I think I'm thinking about it in different way. You've got the CEO's, top tier executives, and their boards (speaking of the private companies) making these decisions. I don't think anyone saw this cataclismic failure coming... at least not to the extent we saw. Short selling had a huge impact in the acceleration of the fall, but there isn't really one single event or time that caused this to happen. Sure in hindsight, it was clear, and could've been avoided.

I was speaking more to the current situation now that what's done is done. If you look at some of the top people who are advising the treasury, the justice department, and the administration, they're not partisans, but just some of the smartest economic minds we have.

What really pissed me off was Pelosi's assertion that there was not reason for them to stay in session. Her quote from the steps of the congressional hall was something to the affect that "it's not our fault... there's nothing we can do." And that was echoed later by Harry Reid and Barney Frank (who coincidently was key in blocking the prior reform bill before this all happened). This isn't a red/blue thing anymore and I'm also pissed that it's playing as political fodder for the Republicans as well. I'd like to see the Republicans spend less time making sure everyone knows who they think is to blame and more time behind the scenes forcing a majority of Congress to put enforceable reform in place. Banning short selling of these key instruments was a major start in my opinion and I'm glad to see a united effort behind that.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I continue to hear how this could happen and why no one is being held accountable. That's simple, no one did anything wrong under the current system. All these rich people like CEO's and others didn't break any laws. Sure, what they did was a bit dirty, but not illegal. They took all the advantages they could and the rest are left holding the bag. The blame falls on the Bush Administration and Congress as a whole. But you can't go and arrest them because technically they didn't do anything wrong either. All you can do is vote them out on the grounds that you've lost confidence in their ability to lead the country. If we continue to vote in the same old crowd, we have only ourselves to blame (this isn't a plug for Obama).
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I personally think this plan is better than universal health care anyway.
Please clarify. I understand the need for the bailout. It's a situation that sucks on all fronts. But do you feel that spending close to a trillion dollars to rescue an economy due to lack of proper management is better spent money than providing healthcare to millions of people for several years?
 
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itschris

itschris

Moderator
I continue to hear how this could happen and why no one is being held accountable. That's simple, no one did anything wrong under the current system. All these rich people like CEO's and others didn't break any laws. Sure, what they did was a bit dirty, but not illegal. They took all the advantages they could and the rest are left holding the bag. The blame falls on the Bush Administration and Congress as a whole. But you can't go and arrest them because technically they didn't do anything wrong either. All you can do is vote them out on the grounds that you've lost confidence in their ability to lead the country. If we continue to vote in the same old crowd, we have only ourselves to blame (this isn't a plug for Obama).
Actually the reform bill was killed by the dems in committee by a party line vote.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The blame falls on the Bush Administration and Congress as a whole. But you can't go and arrest them because technically they didn't do anything wrong either.
If we're all being honest. The blame falls on the Bush and Clinton Administrations, along with Congress.
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
Please clarify. I understand the need for the bailout. It's a situation that sucks on all fronts. But do you feel that spending close to a trillion dollars to rescue an economy due to lack of proper management is better spent money than providing healthcare to millions of people for several years?
I don't have much to clarify it with. I just don't feel that free healthcare is necessarily good health care. And although a plan in that direction would cover health care for a few years...it doesn't cover the cost for forever. The bill continues to grow every year while this is a one time shot at fixing an immediate problem. Really they are just two very different animals.

Of course, I'm not a fan of this bail out either...unless some severe oversight is put in place. Something like this plan (slightly altered of course) combined with the FairTax plan seems like a decent idea to me.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
I don't have much to clarify it with. I just don't feel that free healthcare is necessarily good health care. And although a plan in that direction would cover health care for a few years...it doesn't cover the cost for forever. The bill continues to grow every year while this is a one time shot at fixing an immediate problem. Really they are just two very different animals.

Of course, I'm not a fan of this bail out either...unless some severe oversight is put in place. Something like this plan (slightly altered of course) combined with the FairTax plan seems like a decent idea to me.
I never understood why healthcare should be free. Why isn't car insurance free or my $5900 a year house insurance free. About a decade or so ago we were part of the group that was lobbying the state for health care reform. The problem is actually fairly simple and it's pretty much two-fold. 1st, there's not a large enough pool of insureds. Car insurance is basically affordable because everyone is forced to have it. Yes, some break the law, but the vast majority of those driving have some sort of coverage... to cover at least the basics. Because of that, there's a large pool to draw upon when you as the insured file a claim. It's the simple n factor in actuarial fundamentals. The problem with health insurance is that too many people who do not have it, draw from the pool from people who are paying for it. If there was a basic state or federal plan that covered at least hospital/surgical costs that was either mandatory or waived if more conprehensive private coverage was in place, the entire cost structure would change. You'd then have a large pool of insureds all taking place in significantly more affordable plans. But when people like the person we just had a charity fund raiser for, who decided to forgoe paying for insurance and instead "thought they'd chance it" found out she had breast cancer, then the system fails because the costs are not distributed over the proportional sample. I know there a lot of people who cannot afford coverage, but there are a lot more who can, but choose not to because it cuts into their lifestyle. Instead of purchasing coverage, they'd rather take a vacation or buy a new tv, get new carpet, furniture... whatever. There never any guarantee implied that everyone should have equal success. We should cover our priorities first, then have our fun. People just don't want to do that anymore. Everyone thinks they're owed these days. We have a society of victims. In my opinion, liberals perpetuate that for their own benefit. They discuss how you got this bad lot in life and are always there to give you someone to blame... other than yourself, nor provide an other solution It's been a very affective strategy throughout history.

The 2nd major cause are the trial lawyers. My neighbor is one of them and freely admits to me the system is entirely broken. The cost of malpractice insurance is economically prohibitive in every sense of the word. True negligence should indeed be punished and severely, but what we have today is an emabarrassment.

Solve those to issues and healthcare as we know would change overnight. We don't need free universal healthcare. What we need are more people in society taking care of themselves and each other and putting priorities first.
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
I never understood why healthcare should be free. Why isn't car insurance free or my $5900 a year house insurance free. About a decade or so ago we were part of the group that was lobbying the state for health care reform. The problem is actually fairly simple and it's pretty much two-fold. 1st, there's not a large enough pool of insureds. Car insurance is basically affordable because everyone is forced to have it. Yes, some break the law, but the vast majority of those driving have some sort of coverage... to cover at least the basics. Because of that, there's a large pool to draw upon when you as the insured file a claim. It's the simple n factor in actuarial fundamentals. The problem with health insurance is that too many people who do not have it, draw from the pool from people who are paying for it. If there was a basic state or federal plan that covered at least hospital/surgical costs that was either mandatory or waived if more conprehensive private coverage was in place, the entire cost structure would change. You'd then have a large pool of insureds all taking place in significantly more affordable plans. But when people like the person we just had a charity fund raiser for, who decided to forgoe paying for insurance and instead "thought they'd chance it" found out she had breast cancer, then the system fails because the costs are not distributed over the proportional sample. I know there a lot of people who cannot afford coverage, but there are a lot more who can, but choose not to because it cuts into their lifestyle. Instead of purchasing coverage, they'd rather take a vacation or buy a new tv, get new carpet, furniture... whatever. There never any guarantee implied that everyone should have equal success. We should cover our priorities first, then have our fun. People just don't want to do that anymore. Everyone thinks they're owed these days. We have a society of victims. In my opinion, liberals perpetuate that for their own benefit. They discuss how you got this bad lot in life and are always there to give you someone to blame... other than yourself, nor provide an other solution It's been a very affective strategy throughout history.

The 2nd major cause are the trial lawyers. My neighbor is one of them and freely admits to me the system is entirely broken. The cost of malpractice insurance is economically prohibitive in every sense of the word. True negligence should indeed be punished and severely, but what we have today is an emabarrassment.

Solve those to issues and healthcare as we know would change overnight. We don't need free universal healthcare. What we need are more people in society taking care of themselves and each other and putting priorities first.
Outstanding post! Bravo!!;)
 

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