Discernable Dialogue?

A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
I feel like I have a great set of speakers, but I still have trouble understanding dialogue without cranking the volume. During movies this leads to a lot of turning up the volume and turning down the volume...so much so that the volume up button on my Harmoney 880 is wearing out!

Is this a problem with my receiver, not being able to drive my speakers cleanly? Am I going def? Is it a problem with my room acoustics? I did a frequency table a while back using my Rives test disc and my RS SPL meter, but I didn't notice any terrible dips or peaks in that Fq range, only around 50Hz.

I'm just trying to figure out what needs tweaking or replacing in my system to get past this. Suggestions are welcome and encouraged!!!

Thanks Y'all...
 
D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
Well pictures would help lots of pictures not just a few lets see what you might have done wrong which as resulted in this centre channel issue shall we.:)

Then again the first rule in home cinema is matching front loudspeakers there is no dispute on this matter matching or the high-way!:(
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
Well pictures would help lots of pictures not just a few lets see what you might have done wrong which as resulted in this centre channel issue shall we.:)

Then again the first rule in home cinema is matching front loudspeakers there is no dispute on this matter matching or the high-way!:(

The center is sitting on shelves...the wire kind that are open though so I tried not to enclose it, pull it forward, and let it breathe as much as possible.

Thanks.

Front 3 Speakers
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10730738@N08/936303031/

Front Right
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10730738@N08/936303049/

Front Left
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10730738@N08/936303043/

Right Side
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10730738@N08/936303075/

Left Side
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10730738@N08/936303061/

Back
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10730738@N08/936303055/
 
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D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
Well that kinder fooled me for a few moments I thought the cage was next to a sidewall with an open room at the back, it was the mirror reflecting the image that was until I saw the other image.

Well at least it’s placed in-between the two sides ones but its still mismatching unless of course you what a winning hand with a matched set LCR!
Do you remember what the setting for LCR is that is the output volume level for each channel?

And what type of test disc do you have if you have any of course? Also what type of DVD films do you have, I know that sounds rather odd but that’s they way I work.
 

Attachments

Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
I'm no resident expert here, but I'll throw up a couple red flags for you to check out.

1. The wall of mirrors will be horrible for reflecting high frequencies that will muddle sound. From my understanding, dialog can be indistinct because the same sound arrives at your ears multiple times due to many reflections, essentially slurring the sound. The wall behind the speaker is one of the principle points of reflections that cause this and should be minimized. Mirrors may be the worst case scenario behind the speakers. Possible fix - place acoustic panels behind each front speaker (even behind the equipment rack). Also, use an acoustic panel on the wall behind the couch to reduce reflections from behind.

2. From the specs of the center (4-8 ohms, 88dB sensitivity) it seems like that may not be the easiest speaker to drive, especially with your receiver that is only rated for 80wpc@6ohm. Possible solution - Try and find an amp that's stable into 4ohms with enough headroom that that it won't distort the signal trying to drive that speaker, maybe an Outlaw monoblock amp to just run the center.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
Well that kinder fooled me for a few moments I thought the cage was next to a sidewall with an open room at the back, it was the mirror reflecting the image that was until I saw the other image.

Well at least it’s placed in-between the two sides ones but its still mismatching unless of course you what a winning hand with a matched set LCR!
Do you remember what the setting for LCR is that is the output volume level for each channel?

And what type of test disc do you have if you have any of course? Also what type of DVD films do you have, I know that sounds rather odd but that’s they way I work.
I guess I'm confused by what you mean with a matched LCR? What do you mean by it is a mismatching center? The center is essentially the same speaker as the front left and right, without the 10" driver. Same mids, same tweeter. According to the manufacturer it is the "matching" center for those speakers. Hope that helps.

I have a Rives Audio Test disc 2, as far as movies I have a lot of Sci-Fi, but I was watching Superman Returns last night, which is what sparked the posting. Granted this problem happens with every movie I watch, even television. Other movies...Serenity, The Incredibles, Pirates of the Caribbean 2, Every Star Trek Movie, Indiana Jones boxed set, matrix boxed set, I've got hundreds so it's tough to say. But the problem is consistent across the board. That's why I'm thinking it is something else.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
I'm no resident expert here, but I'll throw up a couple red flags for you to check out.

1. The wall of mirrors will be horrible for reflecting high frequencies that will muddle sound. From my understanding, dialog can be indistinct because the same sound arrives at your ears multiple times due to many reflections, essentially slurring the sound. The wall behind the speaker is one of the principle points of reflections that cause this and should be minimized. Mirrors may be the worst case scenario behind the speakers. Possible fix - place acoustic panels behind each front speaker (even behind the equipment rack). Also, use an acoustic panel on the wall behind the couch to reduce reflections from behind.

2. From the specs of the center (4-8 ohms, 88dB sensitivity) it seems like that may not be the easiest speaker to drive, especially with your receiver that is only rated for 80wpc@6ohm. Possible solution - Try and find an amp that's stable into 4ohms with enough headroom that that it won't distort the signal trying to drive that speaker, maybe an Outlaw monoblock amp to just run the center.

1.) I've been wondering about acoustical treatment for my room, I guess that kind of answers my question about where to put them.

2.) I've been waiting on the new Axiom amp to be honest before I replace my receiver. I want to move to separates and won't have a problem doing so in a couple weeks once it is released I suppose. As far as a processor goes, I'm still holding out as I haven't found one that I'm crazy about yet. It seems pretty hard to find anything that can process the new Audio codecs and supports HDMI 1.3. I figure if I'm going to buy something, I would like the latest technology on it, just so I"m not outdated as early...not like I have a fantastic display by anymeans, but it's the thought that counts!
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Hey, Andrew, just a couple of questions for you.

1. Have you set up the speaker levels to be even with each other, using either an SPL meter or just by ear?

2. Have you checked the settings on your receiver to make sure that everything is set up the way you want?

An idea for something to do in the meantime until you find another fix is that you can limit the dynamic range of the movies for Dolby Digital and (I believe) DTS. A lot of receivers and DVD players will let you do that. If you're not familiar with that, it limits the volume differences between the loud sounds (e.g. explosions) and soft sounds (e.g. dialogue). If you want any help setting that up, just let us know and we'll help you out.

Adam
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I feel like I have a great set of speakers, but I still have trouble understanding dialogue without cranking the volume. During movies this leads to a lot of turning up the volume and turning down the volume...so much so that the volume up button on my Harmoney 880 is wearing out!

Is this a problem with my receiver, not being able to drive my speakers cleanly? Am I going def? Is it a problem with my room acoustics? I did a frequency table a while back using my Rives test disc and my RS SPL meter, but I didn't notice any terrible dips or peaks in that Fq range, only around 50Hz.

I'm just trying to figure out what needs tweaking or replacing in my system to get past this. Suggestions are welcome and encouraged!!!

Thanks Y'all...
It is almost certainly one of the following:

1) Your speakers, or
2) Your room acoustics.

You say that you can understand the dialog when you turn up the volume; this strongly suggests that you have enough power to drive your speakers; otherwise, it should be distorting more with higher volume.

I have found that a lot of speakers that subjectively seem to sound decent with music are not really as good as people often think, as the dialog isn't as clear as it should be. I have had the best luck with Aurum Cantus speakers with ribbon tweeters, though I have had good luck with Bohlender-Graebener speakers with planar/ribbon tweeters.

If you have an echo in your room (from being too "live", that is, from having too many reflections), this could also be the total cause of your problem.
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
This is a common complaint with the center channel. I balanced everything out with an spl meter & I still wasn't happy with the center, even with my big amplifier providing the power. So I just boosted up the volume a couple of notches within the Denon settings for volume & now I'm happy!
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
Hey, Andrew, just a couple of questions for you.

1. Have you set up the speaker levels to be even with each other, using either an SPL meter or just by ear?

2. Have you checked the settings on your receiver to make sure that everything is set up the way you want?

An idea for something to do in the meantime until you find another fix is that you can limit the dynamic range of the movies for Dolby Digital and (I believe) DTS. A lot of receivers and DVD players will let you do that. If you're not familiar with that, it limits the volume differences between the loud sounds (e.g. explosions) and soft sounds (e.g. dialogue). If you want any help setting that up, just let us know and we'll help you out.

Adam
Hi Adam,
I have set the levels on my speakers using an SPL meter, that was one of the first things that I tried, and I believe I have my receiver set the way I want it to. Honestly there are not that many settings on it and I've been using it for 6 or 7 years now so am pretty familiar with it's workings. I have tried limiting the dynamic range and honestly it helps.

My receiver has two settings for this, "Lould" and "Midnight". Both do essentially the same thing, or so it sounds, but in honesty, it just doesn't sound as good to me. I would never use it for music though.

Come to think of it, I use to use this receiver with another set of speakers before I upgraded, I have a pair of very large (my college days) Infinity 15" fronts and matching center and surrounds. I remember having to do a similar maneuver with increasing the volume for dialogue, though I don't remember it being as extreme. Those speakers were really easy to drive though too, 8-ohm all around.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
This is a common complaint with the center channel. I balanced everything out with an spl meter & I still wasn't happy with the center, even with my big amplifier providing the power. So I just boosted up the volume a couple of notches within the Denon settings for volume & now I'm happy!
I remmber having to do that with my surround channels a bit to get them to where I was happy with them. Is it possible that the front speakers are just plain overpowering everything? Or is that wishful thinking? :D

I'll try re-adjusting the center level to a higher setting, I do have to be careful about how far I push my receiver though as I know it's really not rated for a 4-ohm load. Maybe this is the final sign that it's time to replace/augment the old girl.

You mentioned that this is a common complaint with Center channels, any idea why it is such an issue?

Apologies that this thread has so many tangents to it, I"m just trying to understand the different sides to the issue.

Thanks!
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
It is almost certainly one of the following:

1) Your speakers, or
2) Your room acoustics.

You say that you can understand the dialog when you turn up the volume; this strongly suggests that you have enough power to drive your speakers; otherwise, it should be distorting more with higher volume.

I have found that a lot of speakers that subjectively seem to sound decent with music are not really as good as people often think, as the dialog isn't as clear as it should be. I have had the best luck with Aurum Cantus speakers with ribbon tweeters, though I have had good luck with Bohlender-Graebener speakers with planar/ribbon tweeters.

If you have an echo in your room (from being too "live", that is, from having too many reflections), this could also be the total cause of your problem.
Thanks Pyrrho,
If the movie scene/passage is relatively quiet I don't have a problem turning up the volume to understand it, but I do keep it pretty close to the point of distortion. If it is at the level that I can cleanly here dialogue and it switches it a much louder scene then it will distort. That's one of the reasons for the constant volume dance.

I actually looked a ribon speakers and planar speakers and did enjoy their sound. One of the main concerns I had was space requirements though, especially for planar speakers (Maggies.) I know that they typically interact with the room a tremendous amount and require a lot of space, which is something I just don't have in my apartment.

Is there anyway to tell if I am having a lot of problems with acoustic reflections or if I need room treatments? I know that treatments will help in just about every situation, I'm just trying to get a feel for where.

Thanks!
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
You may want to try going the other way with the center. I had similar dialog issues with my D5 LCR. While most of the issues disappeared when I switched to the Rotel amp. I am running my center fully 6dB down from the L/R and dialog is again improved.

Honestly though, I think that mirrored wall is the single biggest issue you have. Post these pictures down in the acoustics section and see what the guys from GIK or Ready Acoustics think about this. If the room is bad, there's very little that electronics upgrades can do for you short of driving the speakers properly and without distortion. But even that clean reproduction will be destroyed by a bad room.

And speaking of electronics, if you want to move to separates with the Axiom amp, you could take a look at the new Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro. It looks to be an astounding value.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
You may want to try going the other way with the center. I had similar dialog issues with my D5 LCR. While most of the issues disappeared when I switched to the Rotel amp. I am running my center fully 6dB down from the L/R and dialog is again improved.

Honestly though, I think that mirrored wall is the single biggest issue you have. Post these pictures down in the acoustics section and see what the guys from GIK or Ready Acoustics think about this. If the room is bad, there's very little that electronics upgrades can do for you short of driving the speakers properly and without distortion. But even that clean reproduction will be destroyed by a bad room.

And speaking of electronics, if you want to move to separates with the Axiom amp, you could take a look at the new Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro. It looks to be an astounding value.
Thanks for the advice Dave, I'll certainly give it a shot. I saw a post about the integra the other night and have been eyeballing it ever since. Once I make the move I figure I"ll start with an amp first, though with all the first rate affordable electronics...integra, emotiva, all comming with new lines, whats an audio nut to do?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks Pyrrho,
If the movie scene/passage is relatively quiet I don't have a problem turning up the volume to understand it, but I do keep it pretty close to the point of distortion. If it is at the level that I can cleanly here dialogue and it switches it a much louder scene then it will distort. That's one of the reasons for the constant volume dance.

I actually looked a ribon speakers and planar speakers and did enjoy their sound. One of the main concerns I had was space requirements though, especially for planar speakers (Maggies.) I know that they typically interact with the room a tremendous amount and require a lot of space, which is something I just don't have in my apartment.

Is there anyway to tell if I am having a lot of problems with acoustic reflections or if I need room treatments? I know that treatments will help in just about every situation, I'm just trying to get a feel for where.

Thanks!

From what you say, it seems that more power with your current speakers may be a good thing, but if they are unclear at low volume, they are likely to still be unclear at high volume, even if you buy more power. (This is because you are unlikely to be driving your amplifier into audible distortion at low volume, and therefore any lack of clarity at low volume is almost certainly the speakers or the room.) You might be able to understand it better when louder, but don't you think having it actually clear would be better?

If your budget is tight, I recommend finding a Bohlender-Graebener (BG) dealer, and trying one of their speakers (perhaps only trying it in their showroom). Here is their website:

http://www.bgcorp.com/

One of my brothers is using one of their Acculine A1 speakers for a center channel, which is similar to their current Z1 speaker. The dialog is clear. BG speakers tend to be fairly efficient, so they don't tend to require massive amounts of power.

Of course, if you change your center speaker, ideally, you will change your other speakers to match it. Otherwise, when sounds pan across the front, the tonal quality will change, which can be distracting and bad.

Many speakers that seem subjectively good for music are not properly clear for dialog. This means that they are distorting the sound.

Regardless of what you try replacing, make sure you go someplace with an excellent return policy so that you can get your money back if whatever the salesperson sells you does not solve your problem to your satisfaction.

As for the room, do you hear a slight echo when you clap your hands once? Generally, the more soft stuff in a room, and the fewer large flat hard surfaces their are, the fewer the reflections (echoes) in the room. The extreme of this is in an empty room--do you know what I am talking about? You seem to have a lot of things in your room, which helps, but it looks like you have very few things that absorb sound (like carpet, heavy curtains, etc.).
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Try stuffing a bunch of pillows between your center and the mirror and see if this helps at all. As simple as it seems; it worked for me. I am certain that room treatments would be much better but in the meantime just for kicks I tried this and it made a huge difference.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
Try stuffing a bunch of pillows between your center and the mirror and see if this helps at all. As simple as it seems; it worked for me. I am certain that room treatments would be much better but in the meantime just for kicks I tried this and it made a huge difference.
Okay, so I tried this the other night and it did make a noticeable difference. I going to try it out with different source material as well just to experiment. Any recomendations for quiet dialogue? I've been using a scene in Superman Returns, where Lois is on the roof and Superman comes down to see here. It is very quiet and one of those scenes that I typically have to crank to hear.

One other thing is I was listening to my system last night with an SPL meter judging how lould it was...the quiet dialogue scenes are mid 60's to 70's dB while the action scenes were mid 80's dB. I'm pretty sure this is below reference level, but I'm in an apartment too so I can't go extreme. Is there a good level that I should be testing at so I'm being reasonable here?

Thanks,
Andrew

Also, any good quiet scenes from flicks I should check out to test this? Suggestions welcome!
 
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Just throwing my weight in with some others: acoustics is your #1 problem. You could put the best speakers in the world in that room and you'd still be futzing with the volume control and having trouble undersatanding dialogue.

For that room absorption is needed. Diffraction would help, but for now you'll want to find a way to mount and draw some thick curtains over the glass mirrors. Check your other walls as well for oportunities to add some actual absorption panels, especially at the first reflection points.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
Well I've been putting it off for long enough, saying that I'm gonna do it eventually. I guess it's time to start talking with some of our friends on the board about acoustical treatments as it sounds like that's what the majority of the feedback is pointing towards. I had put a call in to GIK a few months ago, but it got crazy and haven't had a chance to follow up. Thanks for all the pointers guys and I'll let y'all know how it turns out.

Andrew
 

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