Digital-to-Analog Converters (DACs) Comparison

[decooney]

For the DAC Gurus hopefully to answer...

Situation:

• 2 year old Arcam irDAC has great specs, PCM1796
• Brand new Arcam rPlay streamer has similar specs, PCM5102
• I'm not using the other DAC plug-in features as much, just streamer now days

If you look at specs for both devices, and I really only do streaming now days, from a pure SOUND quality perspective, is it worth keeping the irDAC (sound wise) with the PCM1796 any more? I realized there are other factors to a good DAC and not just the chip set, but... The irDAC was an $800 DAC, good design, with seven discrete power supplies, yadayada, etc. Its possible adding the irDAC in the mix sounds just a tad better through my tube audio system when connecting the rPlay coax out into the irDAC for DAC use vs. using the rPlay standalone. But, I'm not 100% certain, the rPlay with PCM5102 is still very new, not burned in yet. I'm not sure about the design of each of these devices but don't want to sell the PCM1796 if there is a good reason to keep it. Otherwise, I can just use the rPlay by itself and it's internal PCM5102 DAC and just sell the irDAC to someone who needs a good DAC with lots of nice features. Thanks in advance for your review and replies.

QUESTION:
Is the PCM5102 a lower grade DAC as compared to the former PCM1796?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I will literally eat my hat if you could blindly tell one dac from another, given the switch is fast enough and pre-amps are match levels. If you after actual sound improvement I recommend starting new thread, listing all of your current equipment and i guarantee you that suggestion which will supported by majority of ah AH forums regulars (like me) will improve your sound quality.

 

[lovinthehd]

For the DAC Gurus hopefully to answer...

Situation:

• 2 year old Arcam irDAC has great specs, PCM1796
• Brand new Arcam rPlay streamer has similar specs, PCM5102
• I'm not using the other DAC plug-in features as much, just streamer now days

If you look at specs for both devices, and I really only do streaming now days, from a pure SOUND quality perspective, is it worth keeping the irDAC (sound wise) with the PCM1796 any more? I realized there are other factors to a good DAC and not just the chip set, but... The irDAC was an $800 DAC, good design, with seven discrete power supplies, yadayada, etc. Its possible adding the irDAC in the mix sounds just a tad better through my tube audio system when connecting the rPlay coax out into the irDAC for DAC use vs. using the rPlay standalone. But, I'm not 100% certain, the rPlay with PCM5102 is still very new, not burned in yet. I'm not sure about the design of each of these devices but don't want to sell the PCM1796 if there is a good reason to keep it. Otherwise, I can just use the rPlay by itself and it's internal PCM5102 DAC and just sell the irDAC to someone who needs a good DAC with lots of nice features. Thanks in advance for your review and replies.

QUESTION:
Is the PCM5102 a lower grade DAC as compared to the former PCM1796?

What audible difference does it make?

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... But, I'm not 100% certain, the rPlay with PCM5102 is still very new, not burned in yet. ...?

What is that supposed to mean or do?

 

[brad1138]

Schiit has a wide range of some very nice DACs, regardless of how much you want to spend.

On a tangent;

Being an Audiophile does not mean you are someone who can afford a system that costs well into the 5 figures (I used to think it did). It means you have the passion for better sound than the next guy, you love and appreciate listening to music, and the subtle differences of a new DAC or Preamp, etc.

There aren't as many people who really care about high(er) end audio as you might think (that would call themselves "audiophiles"). I have been in 1000's of houses for my job over the last 20 years or so, and seen maybe 1 dozen systems that were better than mine (a couple well into the 5 figures and 1 well into the 6 figures). FWIW, I picked up most all my equipment used (in very good if not better condition), mostly for 10-30 cents on the dollar vs retail.

 

[decooney]

What audible difference does it make?

Not a major difference, as far as I can tell so far - but there is an audible difference. I do have a revealing system, Cary Audio Class-A tube preamplification with various mods/upgrades, Cary Audio solid state back-end amplifier running in Class-A operation, with my own design custom AMT electrostatic speakers I've been building for 30+ years. Matching components, interconnects, internal and external wiring on all components has been key towards voicing the system how I wanted it to sound. I let the tube preamp, amp, DACs run solid for the past few days...

Edit/update tonight:
Listening back-to-back about 20 times playing the entry part of Robert Plant's "Big Log" song the strings on the guitar and the weight of his voice definitely sounds smoother with more rasp in his voice when running the new rPlay through the older Arcam irDAC. Strings sound more plush and a tad more twang for sure. Don't need to wonder any more, it's not about specs, just have to compare sound just like the Arcam distributor told me to do. Seems they were right.

 

[PENG]

Not a major difference, as far as I can tell so far - but there is an audible difference. I do have a revealing system, Cary Audio Class-A tube preamplification with various mods/upgrades, Cary Audio solid state back-end amplifier running in Class-A operation, with my own design custom AMT electrostatic speakers I've been building for 30+ years. Matching components, interconnects, internal and external wiring on all components has been key towards voicing the system how I wanted it to sound. I let the tube preamp, amp, DACs run solid for the past few days...

Edit/update tonight:
Listening back-to-back about 20 times playing the entry part of Robert Plant's "Big Log" song the strings on the guitar and the weight of his voice definitely sounds smoother with more rasp in his voice when running the new rPlay through the older Arcam irDAC. Strings sound more plush and a tad more twang for sure. Don't need to wonder any more, it's not about specs, just have to compare sound just like the Arcam distributor told me to do. Seems they were right.

You hear what you hear and we all have our preference, but I would say it is absolutely about specs when both DACs are made by TI, if the goal is accuracy/neutrality. The 1796, second from their top, has much better specs and are used in the ex Denon flag ship AVR as well as universal players. Equipment that has a higher end DAC will likely, though not always pay more attention to the overall design and implementation.

 

[decooney]

Thanks PENG.

Found the answer. Will have to retest again tonight with a feature/setting change I was totally unaware of on the new rPlay. I'm sharing this for others who try/buy the new rPlay unit from Arcam.

Got the answer as to why I was hearing a difference, doh!
This morning I received an update from the Arcam factory. They enlightened me to a few things I was unaware of in regards to the older standalone PCM1796 DAC used in the irDAC device vs. the newer PCM5102 DAC used in the new rPlay unit. They did say the older irDAC may sound better straight out of the box, however, there is a simple feature not readily described in the setup process that was not present in the first automated setup of the new irPlay device. When you initially set up zones, typically with multiple speakers, you need to set up each speaker set / device (in advance) before you select the rPlay unit itself for what is now called "Critical Listening Mode", i.e. disables down-sampling to CD quality which is set by default if you don't enable it at the very first step of setup on the new irPlay unit BEFORE you select the rPlay device. Apparently I was only hearing CD quality on the rPlay out of the box.

------------------------------------------------------
Response from Arcam:
Thank you for your email and for your kind words regarding both of the products. From a technical standpoint, the DAC in the rPlay should be better. If you are finding that certain files sound better through the irDAC it is possible that these are being downsampled for network integrity reasons. However, enabling Critical Listening Mode might sort this out for you:

https://play-fi.com/faq/entry/critical-listening-mode

However, there is no accounting for personal taste, and the best technical specification may not provide a preferable performance for some. If critical listening mode is already on, and you are still preferring the sound of your irDAC, then it is quite possible that you prefer how this sounds. It is worth noting, of course, that the DAC in the rPlay is designed around converting audio from streams and the network and this environment is more challenging due to the potential radio interference that isn't present in the irDAC. This theoretically means that the rPlay has to be better to achieve the same performance, but it could be that this is presenting a barrier to perfect performance for you.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards
-------------------------------------------------------

 

[sterling shoote]

My impression is digital to analog conversion and analog to digital conversion was pretty much figured out, that's to say, perfected in the early 1990's, with the advent of better error correction devices. I make this observation from listening to radio commercials I produced and mastered to my Sony PCM-7010F DAT recorders, which still today sound better than anything else digital I have ever listened to.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Found the answer. Will have to retest again tonight with a feature/setting change I was totally unaware of on the new rPlay. I'm sharing this for others who try/buy the new rPlay unit from Arcam.
Got the answer as to why I was hearing a difference, doh!
This morning I received an update from the Arcam factory. They enlightened me to a few things I was unaware of in regards to the older standalone PCM1796 DAC used in the irDAC device vs. the newer PCM5102 DAC used in the new rPlay unit. They did say the older irDAC may sound better straight out of the box, however, there is a simple feature not readily described in the setup process that was not present in the first automated setup of the new irPlay device. When you initially set up zones, typically with multiple speakers, you need to set up each speaker set / device (in advance) before you select the rPlay unit itself for what is now called "Critical Listening Mode", i.e. disables down-sampling to CD quality which is set by default if you don't enable it at the very first step of setup on the new irPlay unit BEFORE you select the rPlay device. Apparently I was only hearing CD quality on the rPlay out of the box.

------------------------------------------------------
Response from Arcam:
Thank you for your email and for your kind words regarding both of the products. From a technical standpoint, the DAC in the rPlay should be better. If you are finding that certain files sound better through the irDAC it is possible that these are being downsampled for network integrity reasons. However, enabling Critical Listening Mode might sort this out for you:

https://play-fi.com/faq/entry/critical-listening-mode

However, there is no accounting for personal taste, and the best technical specification may not provide a preferable performance for some. If critical listening mode is already on, and you are still preferring the sound of your irDAC, then it is quite possible that you prefer how this sounds. It is worth noting, of course, that the DAC in the rPlay is designed around converting audio from streams and the network and this environment is more challenging due to the potential radio interference that isn't present in the irDAC. This theoretically means that the rPlay has to be better to achieve the same performance, but it could be that this is presenting a barrier to perfect performance for you.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards
-------------------------------------------------------

Makes sense. Any digital sound processing (DSP) will affect the sound 10/10 times rather than you to be able to hear difference between two dacs.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not a major difference, as far as I can tell so far - but there is an audible difference. I do have a revealing system, Cary Audio Class-A tube preamplification with various mods/upgrades, Cary Audio solid state back-end amplifier running in Class-A operation, with my own design custom AMT electrostatic speakers I've been building for 30+ years. Matching components, interconnects, internal and external wiring on all components has been key towards voicing the system how I wanted it to sound. I let the tube preamp, amp, DACs run solid for the past few days...

Edit/update tonight:
Listening back-to-back about 20 times playing the entry part of Robert Plant's "Big Log" song the strings on the guitar and the weight of his voice definitely sounds smoother with more rasp in his voice when running the new rPlay through the older Arcam irDAC. Strings sound more plush and a tad more twang for sure. Don't need to wonder any more, it's not about specs, just have to compare sound just like the Arcam distributor told me to do. Seems they were right.

How do you do the A/B comparison?

 

[Bucknekked]

I will literally eat my hat if you could blindly tell one dac from another, given the switch is fast enough and pre-amps are match levels.

I enjoyed the "eat my hat" comment. I haven't heard that in many a moon. The kids might not get it, but I had a good laugh.

And yes, I'll pull out a hat and eat it along with BSA if anyone can do a DBT and tell one DAC from another all other things being equal.

 

[decooney]

I will literally eat my hat if you could blindly tell one dac from another, given the switch is fast enough and pre-amps are match levels. If you after actual sound improvement I recommend starting new thread, listing all of your current equipment and i guarantee you that suggestion which will supported by majority of ah AH forums regulars (like me) will improve your sound quality.

BoredSysAdmin,
Believe or not, after a few weeks of comparing on the same tracks, if you were sitting here right now listening, and you brought your hat, you'd be "eating it" about now. If you have a good set of ears I'd say the difference is comparable to something similar making a change from copper to silver interconnect cable swaps from the same brand cable / length of cables on a revealing system.

While I'm not able to swap actual DAC chips in/out and just comparing units with different DACs inside, there is a discernible difference between the rPlay alone vs. the rPlay + irDAC. I finally got a response from one of the developers at Arcam. He explained while the newer rPlay should sound as good on its own, adding the actual dedicated irDAC into the mix is going to likely sound better because of other factors, filters, interconnects between the two units, the dedicated DAC has better power supplies inside and it's sole purpose is to function as a DAC and not as a player with a DAC built-in. I would not say the rPlay alone sounds bad or with the DAC added on, just different. I actually like the irDAC in combination with the rPlay, so I'm going to keep the irDAC. Sounds a tad quieter, strings sound a tad more lush, not as harsh.

Just had to try it and keep going back and forth to be certain. A difference can be heard.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

BoredSysAdmin,
If you have a good set of ears I'd say the difference is comparable to something similar making a change from copper to silver interconnect cable swaps from the same brand cable / length of cables on a revealing system.

Based on this I think this clearly belongs to placebo category, not having golden ears.
I think I will not eat my hat just yet. and OP please read this then you get a chance:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
specifically this part:

Silver is more expensive but there is no listening difference, provided the resistance is low enough.

 

[Bucknekked]

BoredSysAdmin,
Believe or not, after a few weeks of comparing on the same tracks, if you were sitting here right now listening, and you brought your hat, you'd be "eating it" about now. If you have a good set of ears I'd say the difference is comparable to something similar making a change from copper to silver interconnect cable swaps from the same brand cable / length of cables on a revealing system.

decooney
I tried really hard not to reply to this thread. Anytime an OP makes claims of special hearing abilities I lose interest in a hurry. Who is to say what breed the dogs are that bark in my head? Can you hear them? I thought not. That's what these discussions come down to.

However, when you put in the comment "if you have a good set of ears......" that throws a passive aggressive punch at not just BSA, but anyone reading the thread. To complete the sentence "the difference is comparable to something similar to silver over copper interconnects on a revealing system".

When you throw that in to the mix, now you are inviting comments about physics, not golden ear abilities.
If you are of the school that thinks silver interconnects provide audible differences on "revealing systems" then there isn't much in the english language that will help the discussion.

Monty Python and the Holy Grail provide the only comment I can think of that's appropriate.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just had to try it and keep going back and forth to be certain. A difference can be heard.

Differences can be both better or worse. They're just differences until analyzed as to what the differences are exactly. Could very well be the way you compare things. The silver wire and revealing system comment is more revealing of your audiophilia assumptions....

 

[awdio]

Okay, not that we can actually hear the difference, but JUST in case anyone wants to compare the DACs for themselves, here is the low-down on the high-end DACs:

Flagship Burr-Brown DACs: PCM1792 (THD 0.0004%, SNR 129dB, Crosstalk -124dB).

Second Burr-Brown DACs: PCM1796 (THD 0.0005%, SNR 120dB, Crosstalk -119dB).

Flagship Analog Devices DACs: AD1955 (THD 0.0006%, SNR 120dB, Crosstalk -125dB).

Flagship Cirrus Logic DACs: CS4398 (THD 0.0007%, SNR 120dB).

Flagship Wolfson Microelectronics DACs: WM8741 (THD 0.001%, SNR 128dB).

Third Burr-Brown DACs: PCM1791 (THD 0.001%, SNR 113dB, Crosstalk -110dB).

The $7,000 Pioneer Elite SC-09TX features the Wolfson WM8741 DACs. The $7,000 Denon AVP-A1HDCI, $5,200 Denon AVR-5308CI, and $5,500 Yamaha Z11 feature the Burr-Brown PCM1796 DACs. The Onkyo SR-805, 875, & 905 also feature the PCM1796. The Denon AVR-5805CI, 4308CI, & 3808CI feature the Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs. Mark Levinson and Lexicon use the Analog Devices DACs. Harman Kardon uses the Cirrus Logic DACs.

This is just in case someone uses this nonsense as a reference. The Denon AVP-A1HDCI uses the 1792 DACs and not the 1796 as stated.