Dialing in Digital Stereo System

[Texaz]

Hi,

Briefly, new Hegel H90 powering ELAC UNI-FI UB5. H90 spec sheet says minimum loud 2ohm so enough balls to push the 4ohm Elacs. Both speakers on ~15 foot 12 ga quality cables with banana plugs. All secure. The H90 is 2 days old speakers about 3 weeks. Playing mostly acoustic with plenty of hard rock, Led Zeppelin et al thrown in to see how it sounds at 90% volume

Playing mostly my AAC burned cd's via iTunes and Airplay via iPhone 6s or Macbook Pro OS X 10.11.x. Tidal too. No MP3's all files as good as iTunes can provide via download or burning.

EQ is turned off or just flat.

Problems:

• Harsh trebles. Feels like a low ceiling. Brass cymbals can sound more like hissing air.
• Extreme rim shots sound like gun fire; kinda sharp and too bright.
• Some recordings the mid tones seem to break up...

Possible issues:

• Airplay
• Connections/Network
• iTunes
• Actual files
• Speakers
• H90

Based on the fact some music is stunning I think maybe the system is exposing issues with iTunes, burned files and or Airplay. I had a NAD C368 previously and it had hardware issues but playing Led Zeppelin it sounded perfect BUT with the H90 I can hear hissing! A quick Google search revealed the actual remeasured recording is plagued with this yet it was inaudible with the NAD!

Possible Solutions, things to try (here I'll need your advice too!)

• Plug Macbook Pro directly to H90 with A/B USB cable (Should I get a better than printer cable? Audio quest?)
• Speaker placement (room is a weird ~12 x 20 and easiest placement is directly across from each other mid way..I know not optimal but you'd get it if you saw the room).
• Different speakers
• Play with EQ

or

Bad deck! Is that possible? Does an integrated amp have a break-in period? The harshness almost sounds like a tightness.....

I guess that's enough to get started!

Thanks for any help!

Texaz

 

[TheWarrior]

http://www.hegel.com/images/manuals/USBapplewalkthrough.pdf

We had been watching TV via a 2013 Macbook Pro with HDMI and just got the new AppleTV the other day. There are a number of live performances we watch through Youtube and the difference in sound and video quality on the AppleTV is staggering.

I think there were compromises made for the portability of the laptop that limit resolution in both sound and video. Hopefully the above link helps sort at least a part of it out!

 

[agarwalro]

Hey! Welcome to the forum. Nice gear you've picked up.

Hi,
Based on the fact some music is stunning I think maybe the system is exposing issues with iTunes, burned files and or Airplay.

I believe this may be the case. AAC is not lossless. If possible, when importing CD's use ALAC. Same when buying digital music online (get ALAC or FLAC formats, if not WAV).

Possible Solutions, things to try (here I'll need your advice too!)

• Plug Macbook Pro directly to H90 with A/B USB cable (Should I get a better than printer cable? Audio quest?)
• Speaker placement (room is a weird ~12 x 20 and easiest placement is directly across from each other mid way..I know not optimal but you'd get it if you saw the room).
• Different speakers
• Play with EQ

Spending on a USB cable will be a 100% waste. Might as well put that money in the fireplace. Speaker placement would be my first stop, but, this seems to be a non starter. That leaves, EQ. So, we have the winner .

The thing is, without a baseline understanding of the system performance, we're just shooting in the dark. Do you have any room response measurement capability?

 

[Texaz]

http://www.hegel.com/images/manuals/USBapplewalkthrough.pdf

We had been watching TV via a 2013 Macbook Pro with HDMI and just got the new AppleTV the other day. There are a number of live performances we watch through Youtube and the difference in sound and video quality on the AppleTV is staggering.

I think there were compromises made for the portability of the laptop that limit resolution in both sound and video. Hopefully the above link helps sort at least a part of it out!

Thanks!

Right now I'm limited by space and cable length but tried this and it worked connection wise. I'm going to get little bit better longer cables to allow better placement.

So you're saying that Apple TV is better or worse than HDMI connection?

Is Apple TV essentially Airplay? I see Gen 3 ATV with TOSLINK for $40 used all over..

Texaz

 

[Texaz]

Hey! Welcome to the forum. Nice gear you've picked up.

I believe this may be the case. AAC is not lossless. If possible, when importing CD's use ALAC. Same when buying digital music online (get ALAC or FLAC formats, if not WAV).


Spending on a USB cable will be a 100% waste. Might as well put that money in the fireplace. Speaker placement would be my first stop, but, this seems to be a non starter. That leaves, EQ. So, we have the winner .

The thing is, without a baseline understanding of the system performance, we're just shooting in the dark. Do you have any room response measurement capability?

Thanks,

No room response measurement capability. Suggestions?

I'll reburn some cd's and AB them.

I need a better ethernet cable than the 5-10 year old found in a tangled mess of wires so will upgrade modestly.

Will a $7 printer cable perform well? Frankly I've had issues with them on printers!

Was considering a $75 purchase of AQ ethernet and USB cables of proper length. Bargain brand still ~$20 so not a huge gamble. Oddly "most" Amazon reviews are positive.

Also considering Audrivana as an alternative to iTunes. $75 but comes with 3 months of Tidal a $60 bonus so....

Listening to softer music, Julian Lage, this morning sounds pretty good but the highs just seem to brush a ceiling, get a tiny bit too bright..

I get the concept of good system needs no EQ but if I'm facing that does my software iTunes options "work" or do they clip/distort other aspects?

 

[TheWarrior]

Thanks!

Right now I'm limited by space and cable length but tried this and it worked connection wise. I'm going to get little bit better longer cables to allow better placement.

So you're saying that Apple TV is better or worse than HDMI connection?

Is Apple TV essentially Airplay? I see Gen 3 ATV with TOSLINK for $40 used all over..

Texaz

AppleTV 4K connected via HDMI is significantly better than the HDMI output from either of our '12-'13 Macbook Pro's, in both audio and video.

FYI - There's a mild picture quality increase if you turn the laptop's screen off (F1 dimmer key).

Airplay is Apple's solution to the current need of consumers to manage their wi-fi connected media. I use wifi to connect my AppleTV to the internet, but use HDMI to connect it to an AV receiver.

I bought the new 4K ATV because it has the latest spec HDMI and USB connections, hoping it also receives higher quality audio and video interfaces given the higher bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. So I don't know if an older model will yield quite the same 'night and day' difference. Have you tried physically connecting the laptop/phones to the amp?

 

[Texaz]

AppleTV 4K connected via HDMI is significantly better than the HDMI output from either of our '12-'13 Macbook Pro's, in both audio and video.

FYI - There's a mild picture quality increase if you turn the laptop's screen off (F1 dimmer key).

Airplay is Apple's solution to the current need of consumers to manage their wi-fi connected media. I use wifi to connect my AppleTV to the internet, but use HDMI to connect it to an AV receiver.

I bought the new 4K ATV because it has the latest spec HDMI and USB connections, hoping it also receives higher quality audio and video interfaces given the higher bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. So I don't know if an older model will yield quite the same 'night and day' difference. Have you tried physically connecting the laptop/phones to the amp?

Cool!

I'm strictly audio, don't have a tv yet. Strictly 2 channel stereo too!

I moved things around and am going direct to Hegel from MBP with an old printer cable that didn't work on my printer! Sounds better! Had some credit at Amazon so dumped $35 on a AQ Forest USB cable. Bought a Monster Cat 6 ethernet for $15 at Ace to give me length.

Noticed now gives me the MIDI 96kHz option.

Put on Aerosmith Rocks and Tyler's screams on Back in the Saddle are full! Drum still have a weird tone though... Volume seems to have suffered a little. Airplay 70 was deafening, now need to be about 90 for same ear splitting effect! Kinda moot as mostly I listen to acoustic but c'mon new stereo demands some '70's R&R!

The more I listen I realize this is far and away the best system I've ever had. I'm used to years/decades of subpar tonal definition of the classics so actually hearing a lot more and kind shocking!

Any opinions on Audirvana or CD burning software?

So far I can hear minor tweaks making "quantifiable" differences!

Thanks,

Texaz

 

[TheWarrior]

Cool!

I'm strictly audio, don't have a tv yet. Strictly 2 channel stereo too!

I moved things around and am going direct to Hegel from MBP with an old printer cable that didn't work on my printer! Sounds better! Had some credit at Amazon so dumped $35 on a AQ Forest USB cable. Bought a Monster Cat 6 ethernet for $15 at Ace to give me length.

Noticed now gives me the MIDI 96kHz option.

Put on Aerosmith Rocks and Tyler's screams on Back in the Saddle are full! Drum still have a weird tone though... Volume seems to have suffered a little. Airplay 70 was deafening, now need to be about 90 for same ear splitting effect! Kinda moot as mostly I listen to acoustic but c'mon new stereo demands some '70's R&R!

The more I listen I realize this is far and away the best system I've ever had. I'm used to years/decades of subpar tonal definition of the classics so actually hearing a lot more and kind shocking!

Any opinions on Audirvana or CD burning software?

So far I can hear minor tweaks making "quantifiable" differences!

Thanks,

Texaz

I'm glad you feel improvements are being had!

Because this site is dedicated to the 'truth' in AV, I just gotta say please don't waste your money on $35 USB cables, anymore. AudioQuest, as an ethical company, has been a subject of debate on this site before.

I hear you like a kid in a candy store having just heard the new Wonka bar is available. Keep eating $35 bars, and you'll get a stomach ache.

If you've got enough passion to tell some guy on the internet about how much you like Steven's voice now versus before, then take some time to read up on the AV Research tabs of this site. There is a lot of information that can guide you through the very, very deep rabbit hole that this hobby is.

I hear you getting very excited about the near endless possibilities of sound reproduction. I just care enough to say that there are so many options available that you need to be able to educate yourself to make informed buying decisions in the future. I suspect a desire to add and multiply coming, especially with holiday sales around the corner.....

Cuz that kind of excitement doesn't tend to subside quickly, 'round here! Cheers!

 

[lovinthehd]

More than likely it's your room and speakers, perhaps the volume you're listening at....got a pic of your speakers/room setup? Cable tweaks aren't the answer (nor buying tweaky cables from the likes of AQ).

 

[agarwalro]

No room response measurement capability. Suggestions?

Get this measurement mic and Room EQ Wizard software. This is the lowest cost to enter this rabbit hole. IMO, this is an essential tool and not optional. Should you choose to go this route, Godspeed and good luck. Here on out, the slope is slippery and the rabbit hole very very deep.

I'll reburn some cd's and AB them.

"Reburn"? Do you mean copy the physical disc to iTunes in ALAC?

I need a better ethernet cable than the 5-10 year old found in a tangled mess of wires so will upgrade modestly.

Will a $7 printer cable perform well? Frankly I've had issues with them on printers!

Was considering a $75 purchase of AQ ethernet and USB cables of proper length. Bargain brand still ~$20 so not a huge gamble. Oddly "most" Amazon reviews are positive.

The thing about digital signal cables (HDMI, USB, LAN, Optical, etc.) is, either they work, or they don't. A $5-10 Amazon Basic cable is not going to work any worse than that $75.00 AQ cable.

Audioholic Sin #1: Spending too much on cables.

Also considering Audrivana as an alternative to iTunes. $75 but comes with 3 months of Tidal a $60 bonus so....

I've never used any of them. So, others will have go give you input on this.

the highs just seem to brush a ceiling, get a tiny bit too bright..

Not sure I follow. At low to modest volume, there should be no shrillness at all. Does your room have minimalist decor with highly reflective surfaces all around?

I get the concept of good system needs no EQ but if I'm facing that does my software iTunes options "work" or do they clip/distort other aspects?

No EQ is ideal. Realistically, very few have rooms or systems that could perform adequately without EQ.

Does iTunes apply EQ even when outputting digital via USB or HDMI? If yes, this could make life much easier once the root of your observed sound issues is determined. Well, at least for music from the laptop. Any other sources won't benefit from the iTunes EQ, so you may eventually need an outboard EQ.

 

[Texaz]

Thanks all!

Before I addressed some of the above... I decided to let 'er rip this afternoon after doing what I could set up wise. Most of the harshness was at about 80/100. Played about 15 minutes at ~60/100 then a real rocker came on so I pushed it to 90/100. Sounded good but then shut down! Display on Hegel said "HOT". It had been on and played for a while but not to volume. Inside T 77° 25% RH. On a desk top with plenty of air flow.

Could it be that while it states minimum impedance 2ohm but spec'd a 8ohm that 4 ohm speakers are not ideal? Dealer said a non issues but the over heating in just a couple minutes...

Cables: I'm done, don't worry! Bought from Amazon and if they work better I'll keep, if no difference; return.

Speaker placement: Still rearranging things. I'm a silver smith and home/living room = shop! Walls are lined with 36" tall 24" deep work benched all around. Lots of metal tools and such. But distortion observed right next to speakers too. I'm sure I can make better but don't think room dynamics are playing to the issue I'm dealing with.

I already found and downloaded the Room EQ Wizard! I'll see how serious I want to get with the $100 mic.



A friend was over and concurred there is something odd with the tones even at modest 43/100 level. JJ Cale Cocaine has a little distortion but it becomes a fuzziness. Both speakers. Switched wires and same effect. Said friend has a pair of Aperion speakers she will bring over tomorrow and see if they exhibit same distortion. Yea I'm calling it distortion now!

I can return the speakers with no penalty. I'm wondering what the odds are it's the Hegel as opposed to speakers? They seemed fine with the NAD but it's rated at 4ohms... Perhaps 8ohm a better match....especially with over heating.

Thanks,

Texaz

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, you may simply need more capable speakers or a more powerful amp for your desired playback levels; curious, why did you spend so much more on the amp than the speakers? Should be the other way around...

Most of the sound quality is in the speakers and their interaction with the room. Maybe you should try other speakers....

 

[Texaz]

Well, you may simply need more capable speakers or a more powerful amp for your desired playback levels; curious, why did you spend so much more on the amp than the speakers? Should be the other way around...

Most of the sound quality is in the speakers and their interaction with the room. Maybe you should try other speakers....

Without a long explanation I had the Elac paired with an NAD C368 which sounded great BUT two amps in a row had hardware issues.

Returned NAD but still have the speakers for now.

Couples with a few products from china failing on me this year I have decided to try Euro and this was the best option that was plug and play.

Despite my posts I'm looking to just have a simple system and would be happy if the issues weren't so glaring IMO.

Also no showrooms within 200 miles of where I live so going off reviews and dealer advice. Had done many hours of research and not just buying first options. The NAD Elac had consumer reviews so safe bet but Hegel not too many and those that I found using $20k reference speakers.....

Thanks,

TexAz

 

[Texaz]

BTW.

I concede there may easily be issues with the files/songs I'm listening too and I'm chasing a ghost.

Anyone have a good reference song on Tidal you could recommend that holds up at volume with dynamic range?

Thanks,

T

 

[lovinthehd]

Without a long explanation I had the Elac paired with an NAD C368 which sounded great BUT two amps in a row had hardware issues.

Returned NAD but still have the speakers for now.

Couples with a few products from china failing on me this year I have decided to try Euro and this was the best option that was plug and play.

Despite my posts I'm looking to just have a simple system and would be happy if the issues weren't so glaring IMO.

Also no showrooms within 200 miles of where I live so going off reviews and dealer advice. Had done many hours of research and not just buying first options. The NAD Elac had consumer reviews so safe bet but Hegel not too many and those that I found using $20k reference speakers.....

Thanks,

TexAz

BTW.

I concede there may easily be issues with the files/songs I'm listening too and I'm chasing a ghost.

Anyone have a good reference song on Tidal you could recommend that holds up at volume with dynamic range?

Thanks,

T

I've seen little on the Hegel but what I've seen was by folk who praised it highly. You have no other speakers to see if the problem follows the amp? Likewise, no other system to play your music files to see if the issue follows? I don't live anywhere near showrooms but reviews and dealer advice I really don't put much faith into personally, maybe somewhat informational but that's about it; much better advice around here generally.

I cancelled Tidal for lack of selection part way thru my initial trial so no particular suggestions there. There are a few threads on AH with suggestions for good demo material/recordings (which likely won't be AAC versions let alone with whatever settings you had)....but what specific tracks/recordings have you played with issues, maybe someone has those and can advise.

 

[Texaz]

Funny how no one suggested plugging in headphones into source!

I did that and found the same artifacts distortion whether from my local AAC files or Tidals version.

I guess the best bet is to work forward from the source instead of back from the final output!

Tried my friends Aperion speakers and was underwhelmed. Elacs better.

But still wondering about the 4 ohm match....

Thanks,

Texaz

 

[TLS Guy]

I think you may be asking too much from that 60 watt per channel integrated amp. If you shut it down from over heating then you won't have it long.

We have two threads with amps shutting down open now. Both are three ways with cross from bass to mid at 270 Hz. Both from the same designer.

The impedance curve and phase angles of the KEF speakers are awful. Yours are unknown.

However I have stated before and will again now. Passive crossovers below 400 Hz are problematic and actually 500 Hz is better. I note B & W moved the crossover up to 500 Hz on their 800 D3 series.

Those low passive crossovers just beg for amp/speaker interface issues. The reason it happens is not enough wide band mid units. If the crossovers are not spaced enough then you have unsolvable band pass gain issues.

I know full well you can't crank that little amp with those speakers.

 

[agarwalro]

Funny how no one suggested plugging in headphones into source!

I did that and found the same artifacts distortion whether from my local AAC files or Tidals version.

I guess the best bet is to work forward from the source instead of back from the final output.

I thought you were taking audio to the amp via USB?
That would eliminate the source DAC from the chain. In this scenario, the distortion is only amp or speaker related.

 

[Texaz]

I thought you were taking audio to the amp via USB?

I was! The computer hooks directly to the H90 via USB! Recall the discussion of USB cables!

WHile there are still couple issues to address I was stumped by some real bad cuts and it ended up they were both poorly mastered. The Led Zeppelin IV Deluxe Ed and a JJ Cale Collection in particular were giving me fits!

By going direct to headphones from source eliminated amp and speakers. Comparing multiple files pointed directly to the actual remastered files.

Finding some clean recordings/files step one!

Thanks,

T

 

[Texaz]

It was the speakers!

Switched to some Focal 706's and back to hifi music!

Was told the amp capable of powering 4 ohm speakers but imagine the the curve with these speakers not ideal.

The sweet spot was real narrow, like 45-50.

Below no dynamics, above the issues described above.

A good set up should be able to play hifi quality over a broad range shouldn't it?

Or do most systems have narrow sweet spots depending upon one's ear?

Thanks for all the help!

TexAz