Denon/Yamaha

[miggs]

So, I am down to the wire in terms of picking up a new AVR. Currently I have a yamaha rx-V1700 that I run with a 5.1 configuration. (EMP 55ti and family from EMP).

The decision is between a Denon AVR-X4300H or a Yamaha RX-A1070 both on sale.

My LCR speakers are connected with the AVR pre-outs to a Emotiva 3 channel amplifier.

My TV is a Sony 4K 900e series XBR.

Wich AVR do you recommend? Will they sound similar. One less bright than the other. I am most familiar with yamaha AVRs, but I was looking to branch out.

I also saw the denon at best buy and in deed it was running pretty hot.

I need a good AVR for my new 4K tv and won't be outdated in six months since these models are not new. Your thoughts? I am also confused about Dolby vision and is this something that AVR should work wit h or have.

 

[Audiosaur]

Hard to beat the value of the 4300 right now (if you can still find one). Don't worry about the heat, especially considering your use of the Emotiva. I have my front 3 amped likewise and my 4300 is barely warm after several hours of use.

 

[miggs]

I know the value is good, but I am more concern with performance, sound quality and longevity. I am really not sure which one to pick!

 

[PENG]

I know the value is good, but I am more concern with performance, sound quality and longevity. I am really not sure which one to pick!

The Denon is more comparable to the RX-A2060. It has better specs but in pure direct mode I doubt you can pick them out in a blind test

Between those 2, I would go with the Denon for sure.

 

[3db]

Im in the Yamaha camp owning two of them and still working flawlessly. Denon is also a solid performing AVR znd I doubt fery much that you would be able to tell the difference between the two in pure direct mode.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is too easy. The Denon X4300 for sure.

As already mentioned, the 1070 is not in the same class as the X4300.

The 1070 is in the same class as the Denon X3300, which is on sale for $599 brand new on Amazon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know the value is good, but I am more concern with performance, sound quality and longevity. I am really not sure which one to pick!

RELIABILITY: I've seen just as many reliability complaints about Denon as I see for Yamaha.
I've owned 10 DENON AVRs that I bought brand new. None of them have ever had a problem.

Now I can't say the same for the refurbished AVRs that I bought and had to return immediately.

But they have been great to me when bought brand new.

POWER: Denon X4000 series can output 92W x 7Ch Driven into 8 ohms; Yamaha 2000 series can output 55W x 7Ch into 8 ohms.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a2050-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The older Denon 3805 (older 3000 series) is comparable to the newer Denon X4000 series. The Denon 3805 can output 170W (Dynamic Power output) into 1 ohm. That's right, it's torture test into 1 ohm!

SOUND QUALITY: As already mentioned, in Direct or Pure Direct modes, you won't be able to tell the difference. So the only difference will be in the Equalization (EQ) processing.

A lot of people care for room EQ. Personally, I don't care for any Room EQ (Audyssey, YPAO, Pioneer, ARC, DIRAC, Lyngdorf, etc.).

However, I absolutely love Audyssey Dynamic EQ (DEQ). I would never buy an AVR or Pre-pro without Audyssey DEQ.

So in terms of SQ, it comes down to the EQs. If you don't care for any kind of EQ, then it's a toss-up in SQ.

In terms of class vs price, the Denon X3300 is in the same class as the Yamaha 1070. You can get the X3300 on sale for $599 brand new. So the Denon clearly wins here in terms of class vs price.

 

[3db]

The ACD test is not a very good indicator for power delivery as it only tests the manufacturer's protective circuitry sensitivity, nothing more. I cant think of one BluRay that I own that puts equal amount of power to all channels at the same time. I would stick to the 2 channel power delivery.

 

[PENG]

The ACD test is not a very good indicator for power delivery as it only tests the manufacturer's protective circuitry sensitivity, nothing more. I cant think of one BluRay that I own that puts equal amount of power to all channels at the same time. I would stick to the 2 channel power delivery.

I agree with you the ACD thing is more about the protective scheme. The last Denon I bought was the AVR-4308CI, please take a look of the S&V test results of the 4308 and the more expensive Yamaha RX-Z7, and compare their 2 channel power delivery.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z7-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements

At 0.1% THD
Yamaha RX-Z7:
168.9 W into 8 ohms
222 W into 4 ohms

Denon AVR-4308CI
198.6 W into 8 ohms
298 W into 4 ohms (Note: at 1% THD, it's a whopping 343.3 W).

I pick this one as an example because I own the AVR-4308CI and it just happened to have even more output than the newer flagship models (the AVR-4520 came close).

I remember seeing it goes the other way in favor of Yamaha, though by much smaller margins. Overall I consider the two brands comparable in terms of what you called 2 channel delivery. We both said that in pure direct, the two brands (equivalent models) would not sound audibly different. Yamaha tend to have better perceived reliability, and Denon may have more effective REQ, though Yamaha has closed, or eliminated that gap, with their newest YPAO.

 

[3db]

I agree with you the ACD thing is more about the protective scheme. The last Denon I bought was the AVR-4308CI, please take a look of the S&V test results of the 4308 and the more expensive Yamaha RX-Z7, and compare their 2 channel power delivery.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z7-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements

At 0.1% THD
Yamaha RX-Z7:
168.9 W into 8 ohms
222 W into 4 ohms

Denon AVR-4308CI
198.6 W into 8 ohms
298 W into 4 ohms (Note: at 1% THD, it's a whopping 343.3 W).

I pick this one as an example because I own the AVR-4308CI and it just happened to have even more output than the newer flagship models (the AVR-4520 came close).

I remember seeing it goes the other way in favor of Yamaha, though by much smaller margins. Overall I consider the two brands comparable in terms of what you called 2 channel delivery. We both said that in pure direct, the two brands (equivalent models) would not sound audibly different. Yamaha tend to have better perceived reliability, and Denon may have more effective REQ, though Yamaha has closed, or eliminated that gap, with their newest YPAO.

We can both choose models that can best the other.. probably do this all day long In my mind, there is no clear winner between the two manufacturers unlike some who think there is.

What I would really like to see is a real world analysis with a real test methodology of the two EQ systems to see their weaknesses and strengths.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I usually also just look at the 2Ch power spec.

But for the sake of debate, although it doesn't occur often, I have seen movies where the surround speakers seem to concurrently get as loud as the front speakers.

In a large room where the listening position is 18FT, with speakers that are not as sensitive, with higher volume, I would debate that all 7 channels could exceed 55W concurrently with some loud action movies.

So although ACD might not be relevant for all movies, it is a possibility.

For the sake of debate.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The decision is between a Denon AVR-X4300H or a Yamaha RX-A1070 both on sale.

They are both on sale, but what is the exact price of the Yamaha 1070?

 

[M Code]

Do your home work on features and specs..
In overall USA market share Yamaha sells 19% more AVRs than Denon so they are #1. However regarding reliability, my AV install office is rite around the corner from a warranty station thats services both Denon and Yamaha. The return rate on Denon AVRs to Yamaha is about 3 to 1, for every Yamaha AVR brought in for service there are 3 Denon AVRs brought in. Don't take my word for it, visit a selling dealer and/or service center and check it out the brand comparison yourself...

Just my $0.02..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do your home work on features and specs..
In overall USA market share Yamaha sells 19% more AVRs than Denon so they are #1. However regarding reliability, my AV install office is rite around the corner from a warranty station thats services both Denon and Yamaha. The return rate on Denon AVRs to Yamaha is about 3 to 1, for every Yamaha AVR brought in for service there are 3 Denon AVRs brought in. Don't take my word for it, visit a selling dealer and/or service center and check it out the brand comparison yourself...

Just my $0.02..

Did anyone keep track of the actual model numbers?

For example, of the Denon sent in for repair, were they X4000 series, X3000 series, X2000 series, X1000 series?

Same for Yamaha.

Of the sales, how many were Denon X4000, X3000 vs Yamaha 1000 & 2000 series?

For example, where there more sales of the Yamaha 1000 & 2000 vs Denon X3000 & X4000 ?

I looked at the buyer reviews/ratings on Best Buy, Amazon, and Crutchfield. It seems there are a lot more reviews/ratings for the Denon x3000 & X4000 than Yamaha 1000 & 2000.

Since we are comparing the Denon 3000/4000s vs Yamaha 1000/2000s, what we want to know is how many Denon 3000/4000s and Yamaha 1000/2000s were sold and how many of those same models were repaired.

 

[3db]

Do your home work on features and specs..
In overall USA market share Yamaha sells 19% more AVRs than Denon so they are #1. However regarding reliability, my AV install office is rite around the corner from a warranty station thats services both Denon and Yamaha. The return rate on Denon AVRs to Yamaha is about 3 to 1, for every Yamaha AVR brought in for service there are 3 Denon AVRs brought in. Don't take my word for it, visit a selling dealer and/or service center and check it out the brand comparison yourself...

Just my $0.02..

Is this particular to certain models or do the returns run the entire model range for a given year by both of the manufacturers.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

The Denon is more comparable to the RX-A2060. It has better specs but in pure direct mode I doubt you can pick them out in a blind test

Between those 2, I would go with the Denon for sure.

and in a few months Yamaha will replace the 1070 with something new!

 

[M Code]

Is this particular to certain models or do the returns run the entire model range for a given year by both of the manufacturers.

Comparison is for returns of all current models for Yamaha vs. Denon now being sold and brought in for repair under warranty. IMHO the primary reason Denons AVRs are less reliable has to do with the quality control system/conditions at their subcontracting assembler Sherwood factory in Vietnam. Whereas the Yamaha products are built in their owned factories.

Just my $0.02..

 

[PENG]

Comparison is for returns of all current models for Yamaha vs. Denon now being sold and brought in for repair under warranty. IMHO the primary reason Denons AVRs are less reliable has to do with the quality control system/conditions at their subcontracting assembler Sherwood factory in Vietnam. Whereas the Yamaha products are built in their owned factories.

Just my $0.02..

That makes sense because in many cases it could take some time before a new facility get to the point where quality control/assurance is up to the standard set by the manufacturer. What else does that facility make aside from Denon, how about Marantz?

So far all my Denon and Marantz were made in Japan except the AVR-1912, but even the 1912 has been operating with no issues whatsoever.

 

[M Code]

That makes sense because in many cases it could take some time before a new facility get to the point where quality control/assurance is up to the standard set by the manufacturer. What else does that facility make aside from Denon, how about Marantz?

So far all my Denon and Marantz were made in Japan except the AVR-1912, but even the 1912 has been operating with no issues whatsoever.

Marantz AVRs used to built by the same subcontractor that did Harman/Kardon, Anthem, NAD. But after the reorg of D&M being sold to Directed Electronics Marantz AVRs are now assembled in the same factory as Denon as there are many common components.. However note for the latest Denon higher end models such as the 6400 they continue to be built in Japan in the 1 of the Marantz factories.

Just my $0.02..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Comparison is for returns of all current models for Yamaha vs. Denon...

Too bad they don't have more specific data on the price range of the models. It would be interesting to see if the cheaper entry models have the most issues vs the mid and upper range Denon and Marantz.

For example, I read somewhere that the cheaper entry Onkyo models had much more issues than the mid and upper models and Integra models.