Denon Owners Thread

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Comparing a restaurant meal to audio? How many times do I have to tell you, I am getting all the power that my speakers require using the 4 ohm setting.
Analogy aside, it is a fact that ECO will affect the available voltage, but also a fact if you don't need the higher voltage then it will have no effects on your speakers for your use, as long as you keep in mind your peak requirements. If your peak power requirement is 10 W or even 30 W, then your are fine but if your average requirement is 1 W or more, then it may not be fine. I'm sure you know that already.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
Analogy aside, it is a fact that ECO will affect the available voltage, but also a fact if you don't need the higher voltage then it will have no effects on your speakers for your use, as long as you keep in mind your peak requirements. If your peak power requirement is 10 W or even 30 W, then your are fine but if your average requirement is 1 W or more, then it may not be fine. I'm sure you know that already.
Could you elaborate on the "average requirement is 1 W or more" with respect to ECO mode enabled?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Could you elaborate on the "average requirement is 1 W or more" with respect to ECO mode enabled?
Of course, if average is 1W, use a movie such as the Hobbits, LOTR, or some Jurassic, Star War series, the peaks could hit 100 W. The powered sub may take a lot of the heat off, but depending on the XO setting, the fronts and center center may demand upwards of 50 W, if eco is set to on, the amp will likely crip.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
Of course, if average is 1W, use a movie such as the Hobbits, LOTR, or some Jurassic, Star War series, the peaks could hit 100 W. The powered sub may take a lot of the heat off, but depending on the XO setting, the fronts and center center may demand upwards of 50 W, if eco is set to on, the amp will likely crip.
What I'm trying is moving the Fronts, Center and Surrounds to an external amp and leaving the front and rear highs on the Denon 4700 amp with ECO on. It seems to run cooler in this configuration and the Heights use less power.

But who wants to be limited to half power as a result of poor Denon 4700 cooling design? So, I'm going to also try different fan solutions and see if they can overcome the cooling limitations while also remaining quiet.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What I'm trying is moving the Fronts, Center and Surrounds to an external amp and leaving the front and rear highs on the Denon 4700 amp with ECO on. It seems to run cooler in this configuration and the Heights use less power.

But who wants to be limited to half power as a result of poor Denon 4700 cooling design? So, I'm going to also try different fan solutions and see if they can overcome the cooling limitations while also remaining quiet.
Eco won't cut power if you are using external amps with the pre outs because it only limits the rail voltage for the internal power amps. However, if eco is on, the internal power amps will clip at lower output level and will drag down the SINAD of the pre outs for all channels. Whether you can hear a difference between 97 dB SINAD and 75 dB SINAD is a different story, I can't, but some people will tell you they can.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
What I'm trying is moving the Fronts, Center and Surrounds to an external amp and leaving the front and rear highs on the Denon 4700 amp with ECO on. It seems to run cooler in this configuration and the Heights use less power.

But who wants to be limited to half power as a result of poor Denon 4700 cooling design? So, I'm going to also try different fan solutions and see if they can overcome the cooling limitations while also remaining quiet.
Have you tried ECO = Auto?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Have you tried ECO = Auto?
Eco auto does not help much if volume is above -30 (29? don't remember). That's because in auto, it turns on and off based on volume position only. The 2020 models should do a little better though because apparently, or reported by one ASR member iirc (to be confirmed) while they are also depending/triggered by volume setting only, there is an added feature such that if there is no signal, then eco will turn on (effectively) regardless of the volume setting. How much that help, obviously depend, but one can imagine it wouldn't really matter, or help much for normal use.

I don't know exactly what Gene meant in that video when he said it was a safe bet to recommend auto as though it really helps, it is possible that he just meant it wouldn't hurt and might help. It is also possible that he didn't know the reason why his measurements show no difference between auto and off, is because he had his volume position well above -29/-30 the triggger point. In other words, he may or may not know the feature is trigger by volume setting only, given that a signal is also present as it would be when watching most movies, listening to music and of course during bench measurements.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
Eco auto does not help much if volume is above -30 (29? don't remember). ...
For my 2015 model 4200W ECO Auto turns off for volume above -30, and for me that works well for me watching TV in most cases.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For my 2015 model 4200W ECO Auto turns off for volume above -30, and for me that works well for me watching TV in most cases.
But for people who always have volume above -30, such as -20, then eco auto or on makes no difference whatsoever. The only exception is if it is true that the 2020 models have the no signal override feature, then the AVR will have more chance to cool down if say every time you leave the room you press the mute button or if the AVR is left on with no source playing, not really much value in normal use.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
But for people who always have volume above -30, such as -20, then eco auto or on makes no difference whatsoever. The only exception is if it is true that the 2020 models have the no signal override feature, then the AVR will have more chance to cool down if say every time you leave the room you press the mute button or if the AVR is left on with no source playing, not really much value in normal use.
So to be clear, does the Auto setting rely exclusively on the volume setting at the AVR, or on the power being drawn.
IOW, I watch a lot of stuff via YouTube on Roku. Some YouTube content is especially loud such that -40 is fine, and other content needs ~-25dB to be heard.
So whether or not ECO is engaged depends solely on where the volume is set and not what the current draw is?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
So to be clear, does the Auto setting rely exclusively on the volume setting at the AVR, or on the power being drawn.
IOW, I watch a lot of stuff via YouTube on Roku. Some YouTube content is especially loud such that -40 is fine, and other content needs ~-25dB to be heard.
So whether or not ECO is engaged depends solely on where the volume is set and not what the current draw is?
On my Denon 4200W this appears to be so, though I've not done any extensive testing of this as such. By raising volume level to -29.5 I see Auto ECO engage and disengage by -30.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
Have you tried ECO = Auto?
ECO AUTO doesn't help at all. The receiver gets just as hot with AUTO or OFF. Unfortunately, it doesn't really make a difference in keeping the unit cooler.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
The 2020 models should do a little better though because apparently, or reported by one ASR member iirc (to be confirmed) while they are also depending/triggered by volume setting only, there is an added feature such that if there is no signal, then eco will turn on (effectively) regardless of the volume setting. How much that help, obviously depend, but one can imagine it wouldn't really matter, or help much for normal use.
My 2020 Denon 4700 in Auto mode can cook eggs on top after a two hour run. I have not seen any difference with AUTO or OFF. However, ECO on makes a big difference. Probably 20 degrees or more. I should measure it. For now, know my hand would not want to stay on top of the 4700 after running in AUTO mode for 2 hours.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So to be clear, does the Auto setting rely exclusively on the volume setting at the AVR, or on the power being drawn.
IOW, I watch a lot of stuff via YouTube on Roku. Some YouTube content is especially loud such that -40 is fine, and other content needs ~-25dB to be heard.
So whether or not ECO is engaged depends solely on where the volume is set and not what the current draw is?
Correct, based on volume setting/position only, confirmed by D+M. That's why VMPS-TIII experienced what he did in his post#134 above. Eco auto = Eco off if volume is set to higher than about -30, or about 50 on the absolute scale.

The only thing we don't know for sure is whether the addition of the "no signal override" feature (that means if there is no signal, with the AVR simply on, then eco will turn on regardless of the volume) is true for the 2020 models.

If you think about it, if it actually responds to current/power draw, it would have become a class G amp like the Outlaw monoblock.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Just did a search on the web manual. So the new feature is confirmed, in fact even the 2018 models have the added feature:

Right after I read about this new feature, I checked my 2017 AVR-X4400H for the same, hoping it might have been added via some of the recent FW updates (there has been at 3 this year iirc..). Unfortunately no it does not have this no signal override improvement. I am not really disappointed because the way I use my AVR, there will always be input signal in any 2 minute duration, if not it would mean the unit is off anyway.


ECO Mode
This mode can reduce the power consumption and heat generation of your AV receiver when power on.
This is done by reducing the power supply line to the power amplifier, in turn the maximum power output.
On:Power savings are always active, regardless of volume or input signal.
Auto:Gives you the best balance between power savings and maximum power output:
For low volume levels, the power savings are active. If you increase the volume level, the power savings are switched off automatically, so you can enjoy maximum output power without distortion.
If the volume is set to a high level but no input signal is detected for more than 2 minutes, this unit will enable power savings. When an input signal is detected again or the input source is changed, this unit will automatically turn off power savings again at high volume levels.
Off
(Default):
No power savings.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
ECO Mode
On:Power savings are always active, regardless of volume or input signal.
Auto:Gives you the best balance between power savings and maximum power output:
For low volume levels, the power savings are active. If you increase the volume level, the power savings are switched off automatically, so you can enjoy maximum output power without distortion.
If the volume is set to a high level but no input signal is detected for more than 2 minutes, this unit will enable power savings. When an input signal is detected again or the input source is changed, this unit will automatically turn off power savings again at high volume levels.
Off
(Default):
No power savings.
I typically run the 4700 between 42-50. In this range, ECO AUTO did not provide a difference over ECO OFF. In fact, I have the 4700 set with 60 as a limit to volume. You can also look at the ECO meter and it goes down when switching between ECO AUTO and ECO ON.

I should say that I was not sitting around being quiet for 2 minutes either. If ECO auto made a significant difference that would be nice. I just haven't seen it so far.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
@VMPS-TIII

Not sure if you run enough external amps to bypass the AVR internal amps.

I see many posts going back at least 5 years on hot AVRs from multiple brands running 40 Celsius or higher. I’ve never seen that on my Yamahas but I do live in Seattle where hot days are less than 2 weeks total a year.

I give my AVRs at least 5in clearance at the top and the cabinet is open front and back. I also tried those AC infinity fans but having them on top actually could result in heat when I forgot to turn them on. LOL. :). Anyhow in those moments I was able to drop the temp 15 degrees quickly so I think you might get something like that on the Denon if you had the fans running. I actually removed my fans. :)
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
@VMPS-TIII

I give my AVRs at least 5in clearance at the top and the cabinet is open front and back. I also tried those AC infinity fans but having them on top actually could result in heat when I forgot to turn them on. LOL. :). Anyhow in those moments I was able to drop the temp 15 degrees quickly so I think you might get something like that on the Denon if you had the fans running. I actually removed my fans. :)
I could move all channels to external amplifiers. However, I noticed when you're in pre-out mode you lose some of the features like AB speakers, Zone controls and others. It would be nice if pre-out mode worked with all of the different amp assign modes still intact.

I moved fronts, center and surrounds off to external amp and turned ECO ON. In that configuration the Denon 4700H ran much cooler. The Aircom T10 arrived but it's amazingly heavy for just a fan. I will try it but I may return it and just get two AC Infinity MULTIFAN S3 https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00G05A2MU/

My 4700H has 5 feet of air above it and more than a foot of clearance on all sides except the bottom. It's out in the open rather than being in a cabinet.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I could move all channels to external amplifiers. However, I noticed when you're in pre-out mode you lose some of the features like AB speakers, Zone controls and others. It would be nice if pre-out mode worked with all of the different amp assign modes still intact.

I moved fronts, center and surrounds off to external amp and turned ECO ON. In that configuration the Denon 4700H ran much cooler. The Aircom T10 arrived but it's amazingly heavy for just a fan. I will try it but I may return it and just get two AC Infinity MULTIFAN S3 https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00G05A2MU/

My 4700H has 5 feet of air above it and more than a foot of clearance on all sides except the bottom. It's out in the open rather than being in a cabinet.
The S7 version is the one I have. It has 2 fans 120mm with 3 speed.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
I received a response from Denon today as to why when the "B Front" setting is selected in Audyssey amp assign it works as long as the speakers are connected directly to the banana plugs on the receiver but fails when using the pre-outs.

Apparently, completely different circuit paths are setup for pre-outs. None of the Audyssey amp assign modes will control the pre-outs. Instead, if you are using the pre-outs on Height 2, they will only work as Height 2. Even if you have amp assign setup to use Height 2 with Front B or ZONE2, it will not work unless you connect to the internal amp terminals.

What does that mean? Pre-out users will have limited function versus those using the internal amps with amp assign feature.
 

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