Denon HDMI Diagnostics mode...

[Netling]

For what ever reason, Denon hides the fact that some of their receivers have a built in HDMI Diagnostic mode, that no only test the HDMI hardware but will actually test your HDMI cable! Going a step further, you can even limit the HDMI (ie. your projector is only a 1080p, so why allow 4k through?) on both video and audio. I was told that this is for "installers" but why not empower the Prosumer who isn't working with an installer, especially in today's world where the consumer likes to know more and more.

You can get the manual on manualslib.com/manual/1384995/Denon-Avr-S730h.html

 

[everettT]

For what ever reason, Denon hides the fact that some of their receivers have a built in HDMI Diagnostic mode, that no only test the HDMI hardware but will actually test your HDMI cable! Going a step further, you can even limit the HDMI (ie. your projector is only a 1080p, so why allow 4k through?) on both video and audio. I was told that this is for "installers" but why not empower the Prosumer who isn't working with an installer, especially in today's world where the consumer likes to know more and more.

You can get the manual on manualslib.com/manual/1384995/Denon-Avr-S730h.html

Same reason I'm sure that display manufacturers dont give customers the access code to enter the service menu.

 

[highfigh]

For what ever reason, Denon hides the fact that some of their receivers have a built in HDMI Diagnostic mode, that no only test the HDMI hardware but will actually test your HDMI cable! Going a step further, you can even limit the HDMI (ie. your projector is only a 1080p, so why allow 4k through?) on both video and audio. I was told that this is for "installers" but why not empower the Prosumer who isn't working with an installer, especially in today's world where the consumer likes to know more and more.

You can get the manual on manualslib.com/manual/1384995/Denon-Avr-S730h.html

Why not allow the "prosumer" to access this? Because 'prosumer' refers to equipment, not people, and also because their tech support lines are already too busy- it takes us (installers) too long to get through asd it is. That costs us (when under warranty) and customers (out of warranty) money and doesn't make anyone look good when we have to wait on hold. Nobody is going to remember everything in the manual, we don't always carry a computer with us when we don't expect to need one, nor do we like to ask customers for permission to use their computer- they often have sensitive info on them and sometimes, they're not home when we need to find details that may fall under "Gee- I've never heard of that before", coming from the manufacturer's advanced tech support people.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think there is a sticky thread for tips and tricks like this. I don’t have Denon but I bet this is something the Denon people would like. By the way, it’s funny how spell check keeps changing Denon to Demon on people’s posts here.

 

[Netling]

Why not allow the "prosumer" to access this? Because 'prosumer' refers to equipment, not people, and also because their tech support lines are already too busy- it takes us (installers) too long to get through asd it is. That costs us (when under warranty) and customers (out of warranty) money and doesn't make anyone look good when we have to wait on hold. Nobody is going to remember everything in the manual, we don't always carry a computer with us when we don't expect to need one, nor do we like to ask customers for permission to use their computer- they often have sensitive info on them and sometimes, they're not home when we need to find details that may fall under "Gee- I've never heard of that before", coming from the manufacturer's advanced tech support people.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself good enough. By providing this, I would not have wasted HOURS either on hold or phone with Denon or my Reseller. It was only after HOURS (please understand I value everyone's time in this.) that someone suggest I follow this guide, I did and it immediately came back with "Contact Support", which immediately Support said, "Send it back." If I had this upfront, I would have saved everyone time and allow Installers, like yourself to get in to Support quicker.

Why doesn't Denon have a dedicated Support number for you and a dedicated Support id/code to by pass consumers?!

By empowering consumer... most of whom if spending $400+ on a AVR can follow a manual and diagnostic tree. Having the ability to diagnose HDMI cables, in my opinion is a FEATURE and a SELLING POINT, not something you hide. For me, everyone kept saying, "It's the hdmi cable(s)! Is it certified?!" Well if that's the case, than let me verify my cables by myself, the moment I receive them and if the receivers returns, "only 1080p" and I'm running 4K, then I deal with the cable seller and not bother Denon and take up your access to Support over a cheap cable (whom is actually the cause of the problem.).

As for the computer comment, print the PDF out and always have it in the truck along with all of the other tech manuals that one would use for In-Home repairs (I know you couldn't have all of the tech manuals, that would be silly.).

Maybe it's just me but by consumers having this, isn't going to make Installers any less valuable, but "Who is John Galt".

 

[Netling]

Same reason I'm sure that display manufacturers dont give customers the access code to enter the service menu.

What reason would that be?! What would be so horrific that would cause the demise of a manufacturer by empowering their consumers!? Let's take PC/Mac into consideration...

PC - Still the number one selling computing device. Consumers have access to BIOS, firmware, raw code, registry, base code, all hardware (ram, CPU, HD, Graphics card, etc) The consumer can if he/she decided to update, change, repurpose, etc.

Mac - VERY Small % of the computing market. No access to upgrades beyond a few hacks to change the HD. You order X ram you can't upgrade. In the enterprise market the ONLY reason it's popular is because of the OS vs Hardware as consumers/enterprise has zero access to customize.

You see, by empowering consumers, you get consumers on your side and they embrace FREEDOM to change, update, customize, verify...

That's why Denon, on their own website provides all of the IR codes, so people can customize remotes, etc.

So coming full circle, why not give them this lovely feature to verify HDMI cables!? As I said in another reply, it's a feature and selling point!

I can verify that the "supposed certificate" hdmi cable I bought off Amazon by a feature of my Denon AVR, heck yeah a selling point and feature that should be marketed!!

 

[everettT]

What reason would that be?! What would be so horrific that would cause the demise of a manufacturer by empowering their consumers!? Let's take PC/Mac into consideration...

PC - Still the number one selling computing device. Consumers have access to BIOS, firmware, raw code, registry, base code, all hardware (ram, CPU, HD, Graphics card, etc) The consumer can if he/she decided to update, change, repurpose, etc.

Mac - VERY Small % of the computing market. No access to upgrades beyond a few hacks to change the HD. You order X ram you can't upgrade. In the enterprise market the ONLY reason it's popular is because of the OS vs Hardware as consumers/enterprise has zero access to customize.

You see, by empowering consumers, you get consumers on your side and they embrace FREEDOM to change, update, customize, verify...

That's why Denon, on their own website provides all of the IR codes, so people can customize remotes, etc.

So coming full circle, why not give them this lovely feature to verify HDMI cables!? As I said in another reply, it's a feature and selling point!

I can verify that the "supposed certificate" hdmi cable I bought off Amazon by a feature of my Denon AVR, heck yeah a selling point and feature that should be marketed!!

Without bursting your bubble, the reason is the average consumer will cause more problems than they will resolve and that the skinny of it.

 

[Verdinut]

Sorry, I didn't explain myself good enough.

By empowering consumer... most of whom if spending $400+ on a AVR can follow a manual and diagnostic tree. Having the ability to diagnose HDMI cables, in my opinion is a FEATURE and a SELLING POINT, not something you hide. For me, everyone kept saying, "It's the hdmi cable(s)! Is it certified?!"
Maybe it's just me but by consumers having this, isn't going to make Installers any less valuable, but "Who is John Galt".

A HDMI cable doesn't need to be qualified as certified to work. You pay more for that certification which is not necessarily justified. IMO. that certification thing is part of the marketing bullshit in the consumer A/V market.

It's rather easy to diagnose a HDMI cable problem: It simply either works or it doesn't. You just switch to another cable to find out.

 

[lovinthehd]

Never had an hdmi problem with any of my avrs other than the hdmi board crapping out, not sure what diagnostic would have ever done for me. I do have a tv where I've read many times those that have found the entrance to the service menu have done something they can't un-do despite many warnings not to fool around with much of what's in there (people looking for ways to set day/night or checking hours used usually); I've gone in the service menu to check hours myself but am careful to follow the routine, wandering around without complete guidance looks dangerous. Wouldn't mind knowing such for my Denons, seeing hours used or temperature analysis could be interesting but think most consumers aren't patient enough.

 

[Netling]

Without bursting your bubble, the reason is the average consumer will cause more problems than they will resolve and that the skinny of it.

I humble disagree. The consumer of the 70's, sure. Maybe even the 80's but through the 90's (the computer revolution.) the consumers became more savvy, 2000-today... I've met consumers more informed and knowledgeable than "trained" techs. They have access to information, this thing I hear about called the internet... and some have time on their hands to learn full-time, others have better learning skills, etc. That doesn't mean they are replacing Installers, but why should a company stifle them?

I have a friend, whom purchased a $20,000 3D printer "because it was broke beyond repair" according to the company, internal techs and repair personal... he bought it for $1k, turned out to be one small replaceable board that he diagnosed and now he prints models for the company he bought the machine from... imagine that, but I'm positive those techs would argue the exact same, "consumers are dumb, stupid creatures that shouldn't wonder into our advance world." and now they have egg in their face.

Who is John Galt?

 

[Netling]

A HDMI cable doesn't need to be qualified as certified to work. You pay more for that certification which is not necessarily justified. IMO. that certification thing is part of the marketing bullshit in consumer audio.

It's rather easy to diagnose a HDMI cable problem: It simply either works or it doesn't. You just switch to another cable to find out.

AGREED! However, that is what my reseller and Denon support kept on saying, "It's your HDMI cables!" and there IS some merit to it as some cables are not true 18Gbps (4.4.4) but claim to be, etc. That supports my position that Denon should MARKET the HDMI Diagnostic as a Feature... Bought a HDMI cable from X that claimed it's X, verify it with Denon HDMI cable verification and if it doesn't pass, don't deal with Denon (and tie up our support) deal with the person you bought the cable from!

 

[Netling]

Never had an hdmi problem with any of my avrs other than the hdmi board crapping out, not sure what diagnostic would have ever done for me. I do have a tv where I've read many times those that have found the entrance to the service menu have done something they can't un-do despite many warnings not to fool around with much of what's in there (people looking for ways to set day/night or checking hours used usually); I've gone in the service menu to check hours myself but am careful to follow the routine, wandering around without complete guidance looks dangerous. Wouldn't mind knowing such for my Denons, seeing hours used or temperature analysis could be interesting but think most consumers aren't patient enough.

I do agree. Making this document public will only support those actually looking for this feature and with a general understanding of what they are getting into. Also most electronics have a "factory reset" so if the consumer does get things messed up, "factory reset it". Live and Learn but you only learn by getting in there and trying.

 

[lovinthehd]

I do agree. Making this document public will only support those actually looking for this feature and with a general understanding of what they are getting into. Also most electronics have a "factory reset" so if the consumer does get things messed up, "factory reset it". Live and Learn but you only learn by getting in there and trying.

IF the factory reset would reset something done incorrectly in the service menu....could need reflashing of the memory (seems there are avrs that have bricked beyond ability of factory reset doing things like firmware updates incorrectly).

 

[Netling]

IF the factory reset would reset something done incorrectly in the service menu....could need reflashing of the memory (seems there are avrs that have bricked beyond ability of factory reset doing things like firmware updates incorrectly).

Agreed there is no perfect scenario here... those that do venture into service menu, enter at your own risk but damn the company that limits me. ;-) Who is John Galt?

 

[lovinthehd]

If you had a complete service manual to go with it maybe....

Dunno John Galt but he has nice looking model here

 

[highfigh]

Sorry, I didn't explain myself good enough. By providing this, I would not have wasted HOURS either on hold or phone with Denon or my Reseller. It was only after HOURS (please understand I value everyone's time in this.) that someone suggest I follow this guide, I did and it immediately came back with "Contact Support", which immediately Support said, "Send it back." If I had this upfront, I would have saved everyone time and allow Installers, like yourself to get in to Support quicker.

Why doesn't Denon have a dedicated Support number for you and a dedicated Support id/code to by pass consumers?!

By empowering consumer... most of whom if spending $400+ on a AVR can follow a manual and diagnostic tree. Having the ability to diagnose HDMI cables, in my opinion is a FEATURE and a SELLING POINT, not something you hide. For me, everyone kept saying, "It's the hdmi cable(s)! Is it certified?!" Well if that's the case, than let me verify my cables by myself, the moment I receive them and if the receivers returns, "only 1080p" and I'm running 4K, then I deal with the cable seller and not bother Denon and take up your access to Support over a cheap cable (whom is actually the cause of the problem.).

As for the computer comment, print the PDF out and always have it in the truck along with all of the other tech manuals that one would use for In-Home repairs (I know you couldn't have all of the tech manuals, that would be silly.).

Maybe it's just me but by consumers having this, isn't going to make Installers any less valuable, but "Who is John Galt".

The test performed by the AVR is a simple one- a dedicated HDMI tester is at least $1700 and even then, the user needs to know what they're looking at.

I think the time on the phone will depend on when the call is made and I'm with you on Denon's phone supprot complaints but they do have separate numbers, just not enough people staffing the phones. They also shut down for lunch- that, alone, amazes me.

They don'ttrain us the way they used to, either- that change was made necessary by an outside entity and while I won't go into it, I will say that it pisses me off that it happened. The training sessions were 8 hours long and far more in-depth than the online BS they use now. We also had a Q&A section at the end and the trainer was available by phone or e-mail at almost any time. If they were to ask me, and they haven't, I would say they need to go back to the old training system- it increases the number of people in the outside world who have a clue about how these work.

If you bought yours from an online reseller or big box store, I wouldn't expect them to know much about it unless the person happens to be interested in this hobby to a greater degree than normal or if they have the model or vintage in question. In most cases, the people selling these have never touched one or had to deal with a cable problem- it would be almost impossible to train everyone, given the size of the AV industry.

Did you read the Troubleshooting section of the manual?

 

[highfigh]

What reason would that be?! What would be so horrific that would cause the demise of a manufacturer by empowering their consumers!? Let's take PC/Mac into consideration...

PC - Still the number one selling computing device. Consumers have access to BIOS, firmware, raw code, registry, base code, all hardware (ram, CPU, HD, Graphics card, etc) The consumer can if he/she decided to update, change, repurpose, etc.

Mac - VERY Small % of the computing market. No access to upgrades beyond a few hacks to change the HD. You order X ram you can't upgrade. In the enterprise market the ONLY reason it's popular is because of the OS vs Hardware as consumers/enterprise has zero access to customize.

You see, by empowering consumers, you get consumers on your side and they embrace FREEDOM to change, update, customize, verify...

That's why Denon, on their own website provides all of the IR codes, so people can customize remotes, etc.

So coming full circle, why not give them this lovely feature to verify HDMI cables!? As I said in another reply, it's a feature and selling point!

I can verify that the "supposed certificate" hdmi cable I bought off Amazon by a feature of my Denon AVR, heck yeah a selling point and feature that should be marketed!!

The percentage of users who use the Hex code to customize their remotes is far lower than you think- in fact, unless someone is just a geek or into computing, it's unlikely that they know what Hex is, never mind knowing what it's used for, how to convert to binary or octal. In fact, if you were to ask 100 people if they use any of the advanced features of their AVR, most would start their answer with "What's an AVR?". In the past, a lot of people who owned a stereo would bring their receiver in for service, thinking that the amplifier was toast but the most common reason it stopped making sound was due to the Tape Monitor switch being engaged. What does that tell you? Even now, if buttons can be pressed, they will be and that includes the ones that kill the sound. I have to talk people through that all the time, even if they have a universal remote.

WRT "certified cables", the problem with this is the fact that some manufacturers send their shortest cable, receive a 'Pass' grade and then their marketing department advertises their whole line as 'Certified'. If you want to know what works, ask a Custom AV installer- preferably one who doesn't work for a store that sells a lot of one brand that is expensive, uses batteries or sues people. The two companies I'm referring to have cost a lot of people far too much money for BS reasons.

I usually use Vanco HDMI cables. Why? Because they work, the price is reasonable, the short ones (10' and less) are very flexible and because they have small clips on the shell, they stay in place better than just about any others. They also come with lifetime warranty and unless they have physical damage, they'll cover it of it ever fails to transmit the signal. That's in contrast with Key Digital, who won't cover the cable I used in an installation that's three hours from where I normally work, had a three year warranty (which is supposed to begin as soon as I install & sell it) but had been in stock at a local branch of a national distributor for over a year after that part had been discontinued, instead of being blown out as a sale item. The guy in tech support told me that since it has four shielded wires, I could use an RJ45 end to terminate it and then purchase one of their HDMI extenders, as I would if I were using Cat5e/Cat6 cable. Now THAT's some good tech support! The fact that the center wire is stranded must have been forgotten.

I just googled 'HDMI problems'- came up with 26 Million results.

HDMI should never have been allowed to remain for as long as it has, IMO. It has been problematic for 16 years (it was designed in 2002) and that has only worsened because the demands on the system have been increased. These were never intended to be longer than 6 feet and they were supposed to be left alone after being connected. The plug is a terrible design, they should have been round, used a retaining screw/clip and they shouldn't be as stiff.

My point, and my personal experiences caused me to come to it as soon as I saw the problems, is that HDMI should have been abandoned before it ever went to market.

 

[highfigh]

Agreed there is no perfect scenario here... those that do venture into service menu, enter at your own risk but damn the company that limits me. ;-) Who is John Galt?

Ever try to get GOOD tech support from most companies? I had years of problems with Apple's routers and Airport Express and one day a bit more than a year ago, I was told that Apple doesn't recommend, nor support more than two pieces of Apple network hardware in the same network. That took over ten years of pounding my head on the wall for someone to say this and it not long after they announced they were no longer going to develop network hardware. Kind of like their admission that they were screwing with iPhone battery life, but only after they lost a big lawsuit.

You may be able to do this, but I really believe you're over-estimating the knowledge and ability of the average consumer to install and operate this stuff. If you don't believe me, tell all of your friends and family that you'll set up their systems and provide tech support for them.

John Galt would be so disappointed by the inabilities of most people.

 

[Netling]

Ever try to get GOOD tech support from most companies? I had years of problems with Apple's routers and Airport Express and one day a bit more than a year ago, I was told that Apple doesn't recommend, nor support more than two pieces of Apple network hardware in the same network. That took over ten years of pounding my head on the wall for someone to say this and it not long after they announced they were no longer going to develop network hardware. Kind of like their admission that they were screwing with iPhone battery life, but only after they lost a big lawsuit.

You may be able to do this, but I really believe you're over-estimating the knowledge and ability of the average consumer to install and operate this stuff. If you don't believe me, tell all of your friends and family that you'll set up their systems and provide tech support for them.

John Galt would be so disappointed by the inabilities of most people.

Thanks for your very insightful answer, I really do appreciate it! A forum where people can have a discussion, not feeling attacked or attacking! Man, I can see myself spending more time here... there is hope for humanity!

I do hear you and yes, you are right, I am more than likely "over-estimating the knowledge and ability of the average consumer". I hangout with some very smart people (I'm not boasting) whom are very get it done yourself, figure it out and make it work. Regardless if it's programming or welding, we are hands on. So knowledge isn't something you treat lightly, you share, learn, grow.

As a side note, what would be nice to see is companies that after, X years make all the information on electronic open and available to everyone in hopes that it would extend the life of that product downstream. Ie. I used a BENQ projector up until this year, it's over 10 years old. It was 1080i but it look great and worked fine, now I'm letting it go in hopes that someone whom can't afford a 1080 projector use it for, I hope, another 10 years. The reason it has lived this long was someone posted internal tech info that allowed me to fix it when it broke last year.

Again thanks and I hope that this HDMI diagnostic manual helps someone else who likes to figure things out.

Who is John Galt!? (Google the phase if you don't know what it means... read the book or listen to the audio!)

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I know John Galt.