Denon AVR-X3300W going into Protected Mode

T

Theraphosa

Audiophyte
#1
I got this receiver about a year ago and have used it mostly to power my home cinema at relatively low levels. It's worked flawlessly with a 5.1 Klipsch speaker system.
Just this week, I added a Fluance RT-81 turntable (with built in pre-amp). I hooked it up to the CD analog inputs and boosted the source input through the receiver by 10db.
I played two albums without any problems (again at moderate levels). Sounded great. This morning I put on Dark Side of the Moon, and within minutes there was a "pop" and the receiver went into protected mode.
Tried factory reset, it would start to initialize and then go back to protected mode. Even called customer support (who were timely in getting back to me, but unable to fix the problem).
At no point has this thing ever been abused, or even played at very high volume.
(I'm and old guy with no kids at home and my wife thinks it's too complicated to do anything more than turn on the satellite TV!)

Needless to say, I'm thinking that the turntable has a something to do with the failure, it just seems more than a coincidence.
I'll be sending it off to a Service Center, but I'd like to avoid a repeat of this failure, and I'd still like to delve into my LP's from time to time.

Any suggestions?
 

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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Samurai
Ratings
941 9 11
#2
I got this receiver about a year ago and have used it mostly to power my home cinema at relatively low levels. It's worked flawlessly with a 5.1 Klipsch speaker system.
Just this week, I added a Fluance RT-81 turntable (with built in pre-amp). I hooked it up to the CD analog inputs and boosted the source input through the receiver by 10db.
I played two albums without any problems (again at moderate levels). Sounded great. This morning I put on Dark Side of the Moon, and within minutes there was a "pop" and the receiver went into protected mode.
Tried factory reset, it would start to initialize and then go back to protected mode. Even called customer support (who were timely in getting back to me, but unable to fix the problem).
At no point has this thing ever been abused, or even played at very high volume.
(I'm and old guy with no kids at home and my wife thinks it's too complicated to do anything more than turn on the satellite TV!)

Needless to say, I'm thinking that the turntable has a something to do with the failure, it just seems more than a coincidence.
I'll be sending it off to a Service Center, but I'd like to avoid a repeat of this failure, and I'd still like to delve into my LP's from time to time.

Any suggestions?
Why did you boost the inputs to plus 10db? That's a 3x power demand. When you moved the unit to install the Record Player is it possible a speaker wire got stressed and created a short?
 
T

Theraphosa

Audiophyte
#3
Why did you boost the inputs to plus 10db? That's a 3x power demand. When you moved the unit to install the Record Player is it possible a speaker wire got stressed and created a short?
Boosting the input was an impulse thing, and I've been thinking about that, ...a lot. For some reason I thought it might help if the pre-amp in the turntable was subpar. In retrospect is was needless and I'm suspecting that may have been an issue.
I double checked all the speaker wires after the install, and then again after the failure. I disconnected everything afterwards just in case there was an undetected short somewhere. The wire is 14ga speaker wire attached with Mediabridge bananaplugs. They all seem solid and connected.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
7,281 17 25
#4
I don't think the turntable had anything to do with it. Boosting the input probably was not a good idea, but would have damaged the voltage gain stages which would not cause it go into protection mode.

You have not played it loud. That pop was almost certainly an output power transistor blowing and creating a dead short to ground though a speaker. The protection mode activated so your speaker did not go up in smoke. The pop was the DC offset going though the speaker before protection quickly stepped in the save the day.

Because of the complexity of modern receivers, essential elements like power amps are now downgraded.

The component count is now so high, that using consumer grade components is statistically going to make early failure a near certainty.

To correct this there needs to be a move to industrial grade components and preferably automobile grade components. This will of course require substantial price increase.

The other option is to drastically curtail features, and offer basic two, three of 5.1 channel receivers and no bells and whistles. That is probably the most practical option.
 
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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Samurai
Ratings
941 9 11
#5
Boosting the input was an impulse thing, and I've been thinking about that, ...a lot. For some reason I thought it might help if the pre-amp in the turntable was subpar. In retrospect is was needless and I'm suspecting that may have been an issue.
I double checked all the speaker wires after the install, and then again after the failure. I disconnected everything afterwards just in case there was an undetected short somewhere. The wire is 14ga speaker wire attached with Mediabridge bananaplugs. They all seem solid and connected.
If all the wires are correct, its possible you had just overdriven the unit. Your speakers are not a difficult load, so that's not an issue. Back the boost off and report back. How far do you sit from the speakers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
7,281 17 25
#6
Well its the speakers that killed the receiver almost certainly. I can now outline the sorry tale I have long suspected and tried to explain.

The latest receivers are NOT 4 ohm stable. Receivers years ago where not and for many years to the recent past they were and now they are not. They are just stable to 6 ohms.

Your speakers are rated as 8 ohm nominal. They are not 8 ohm speakers but actually BELOW 4 ohms effectively.

We are at the point now where you should not connect speakers to recent receivers and unless you know the impedance curve and phase angles between voltage and current. If you don't know then you need to invest in a Dayton woofer tester to measure them.

Now the next thing is on this and other forums we continually teach that speakers like yours with a high sensitivity rating will be OK, as they will take little power. WRONG.

Now the good folks at Home Theater Review have a good set of measurements in a well done review of your speakers. This is the measurement section.

Here are the impedance curves and phase angles of your right and left mains.



Now you have to understand that a speaker transitiosn from being a monopole to an omni directional radiator at a frequency determined by the width of the front baffle. The narrower the higher the frequency is. So in order that the speakers do not sound thin then the frequencies below that transition have to be boosted. The only way that can happen is for the power to be boosted below that frequency. In a speaker with a passive crossover the only way to do that is to drop the impedance. This is called baffle step compensation, BSC for short.

You can see this in the graph. At 150 Hz the impedance of your speakers is 3.1 ohms. But the phase angle is still quite negative at that point, so current draws will actually be higher than simple calculation would imply, as there is a gap between true power and apparent power. Unfortunately the higher apparent demands will be higher than the true demands, but the current required for the apparent demands have to be met.

Now you can see that the impedance starts to drop below around 800 Hz. This is BSC kicking in.

Now sensitivity ratings are done with a specified voltage. Now you can see that at 150 Hz the speaker will demand two point two five times the power from the amplifier at 150 Hz than it will at 1 KHz for the same sound pressure level.

Now things are still against us. In music peak power demands are in that 80 to 1.5 KHz range and truly peak in the usual range of the BSC.

Now another myth is that subs off load speakers they don't. First of all the power demanded by music drops off below 80 Hz. Even more importantly you can see from the impedance curve, that the two tuning peaks of impedance occur in sub range, actually making power and and current demands modest. What subs do do is offload speakers by reducing cone excursion.

So you see things are not actually like you have been told by dealers, manufacturers and forums, including this one.

So, now we have receivers where so much of the funds are going to licensing and complex processing, with far too little not only spent on power amps but the space devoted to them.

A cheap power amp will not be known for longevity.

We would be far better off encouraging manufacturers to make pre pros, which if produced in quantity would be cheaper than receivers. Investment in a good power amp is a wise investment. Good looked after power amps can last a lifetime and do not become obsolete.

So my final advice to you is to purchase good external amplification for your front three speakers and use the preouts on your receiver when you get it back. Otherwise I fear you will be back in the same boat.

If you get the impression I think receivers are a lousy idea, you are correct. I have explained my reasons above.
Unfortunately for you it is a classic example of the falsehoods frequently spouted on forums like this.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,323 17 37
#7
Well its the speakers that killed the receiver almost certainly. I can now outline the sorry tale I have long suspected and tried to explain.

The latest receivers are NOT 4 ohm stable. Receivers years ago where not and for many years to the recent past they were and now they are not. They are just stable to 6 ohms.

Your speakers are rated as 8 ohm nominal. They are not 8 ohm speakers but actually BELOW 4 ohms effectively.

We are at the point now where you should not connect speakers to recent receivers and unless you know the impedance curve and phase angles between voltage and current. If you don't know then you need to invest in a Dayton woofer tester to measure them.

Now the next thing is on this and other forums we continually teach that speakers like yours with a high sensitivity rating will be OK, as they will take little power. WRONG.

Now the good folks at Home Theater Review have a good set of measurements in a well done review of your speakers. This is the measurement section.

Here are the impedance curves and phase angles of your right and left mains.



Now you have to understand that a speaker transitiosn from being a monopole to an omni directional radiator at a frequency determined by the width of the front baffle. The narrower the higher the frequency is. So in order that the speakers do not sound thin then the frequencies below that transition have to be boosted. The only way that can happen is for the power to be boosted below that frequency. In a speaker with a passive crossover the only way to do that is to drop the impedance. This is called baffle step compensation, BSC for short.

You can see this in the graph. At 150 Hz the impedance of your speakers is 3.1 ohms. But the phase angle is still quite negative at that point, so current draws will actually be higher than simple calculation would imply, as there is a gap between true power and apparent power. Unfortunately the higher apparent demands will be higher than the true demands, but the current required for the apparent demands have to be met.

Now you can see that the impedance starts to drop below around 800 Hz. This is BSC kicking in.

Now sensitivity ratings are done with a specified voltage. Now you can see that at 150 Hz the speaker will demand five times the power from the amplifier at 150 Hz than it will at 1 KHz for the same sound pressure level.

Now things are still against us. In music peak power demands are in that 80 to 1.5 KHz range and truly peak in the usual range of the BSC.

Now another myth is that subs off load speakers they don't. First of all the power demanded by music drops off below 80 Hz. Even more importantly you can see from the impedance curve, that the two tuning peaks of impedance occur in sub range, actually making power and and current demands modest. What subs do do is offload speakers by reducing cone excursion.

So you see things are not actually like you have been told by dealers, manufacturers and forums, including this one.

So, now we have receivers where so much of the funds are going to licensing and complex processing, with far too little not only spent on power amps but the space devoted to them.

A cheap power amp will not be known for longevity.

We would be far better off encouraging manufacturers to make pre pros, which if produced in quantity would be cheaper than receivers. Investment in a good power amp is a wise investment. Good looked after power amps can last a lifetime and do not become obsolete.

So my final advice to you is to purchase good external amplification for your front three speakers and use the preouts on your receiver when you get it back. Otherwise I fear you will be back in the same boat.

If you get the impression I think receivers are a lousy idea, you are correct. I have explained my reasons above.
Unfortunately for you it is a classic example of the falsehoods frequently spouted on forums like this.

If you buy the pre-pro and amps I'm sure more people would take you up on that. Many people use avrs alone without the horrible apocalyptic vision you come up with for them. How on earth did you deduce the OP has the Klipsch 280FA particularly....he only mentions he has a 5.1 Klipsch setup. How do you know he doesn't have significant bass with his content, and why would it be limited to music that you are accustomed to?

Hard to know what happened with your avr over the internet in any case, whether it was just untimely failure of a component, or even if the tt itself, or if boosting the source input by 10dB was a cause (altho that's more than I'd feel comfortable with boosting, altho due the nature of low output from vinyl playback systems, I do understand).
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Warlord
Ratings
2,698 9 4
#8
I got this receiver about a year ago and have used it mostly to power my home cinema at relatively low levels. It's worked flawlessly with a 5.1 Klipsch speaker system.
Just this week, I added a Fluance RT-81 turntable (with built in pre-amp). I hooked it up to the CD analog inputs and boosted the source input through the receiver by 10db.
I played two albums without any problems (again at moderate levels). Sounded great. This morning I put on Dark Side of the Moon, and within minutes there was a "pop" and the receiver went into protected mode.
Tried factory reset, it would start to initialize and then go back to protected mode. Even called customer support (who were timely in getting back to me, but unable to fix the problem).
At no point has this thing ever been abused, or even played at very high volume.
(I'm and old guy with no kids at home and my wife thinks it's too complicated to do anything more than turn on the satellite TV!)

Needless to say, I'm thinking that the turntable has a something to do with the failure, it just seems more than a coincidence.
I'll be sending it off to a Service Center, but I'd like to avoid a repeat of this failure, and I'd still like to delve into my LP's from time to time.

Any suggestions?
As others have posted, the turntable didn't kill your AVR and unless something caused DC to come out of the phono preamp's output and it's not likely that would have damaged the output.

Do you have pets? If so, inspect the speaker wires that are exposed. Animals like to chew.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
7,281 17 25
#9
If you buy the pre-pro and amps I'm sure more people would take you up on that. Many people use avrs alone without the horrible apocalyptic vision you come up with for them. How on earth did you deduce the OP has the Klipsch 280FA particularly....he only mentions he has a 5.1 Klipsch setup. How do you know he doesn't have significant bass with his content, and why would it be limited to music that you are accustomed to?

Hard to know what happened with your avr over the internet in any case, whether it was just untimely failure of a component, or even if the tt itself, or if boosting the source input by 10dB was a cause (altho that's more than I'd feel comfortable with boosting, altho due the nature of low output from vinyl playback systems, I do understand).
His system is a year old, and I can tell from the picture he attached that I have the correct speakers by the shape of the tweeter horn.

The bottom line is that amps in receivers are now downgraded and NOT rated for four ohms any longer. Because of BSC most speakers will actually be four ohm or less and not 8 ohm.

I think this woofer tester needs to be employed before any speaker with no reliable third part measurements needs to be tested with this, before connection to any current receiver with NO spec below 6 ohms.

In fact really every member should own that device.

As far as his fault, then failed output devices are by far the commonest reason for sudden failure and going into protection. He had the loud tell tale pop prior of the sudden large DC offset going through the speaker cut short by protection operating promptly.

Those speakers I think will cause a problem for a lot of the current crop of receivers. Don't be fooled by the 8 ohm nominal rating and the sensitivity rating. In this case, and I suspect many others, this is leading purchasers/owners astray.

You can say what you like, but the hard data above really spotlights the problem. Receiver bloat is going to create carnage from here on out in my view.

Either we need to go to pre/pro with external amps or active speakers. Active speakers would really solve the problem as you can actively increase power output with out creating difficult loads.

With current trends passive speakers should really be gone.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,323 17 37
#10
His system is a year old, and I can tell from the picture he attached that I have the correct speakers by the shape of the tweeter horn.

The bottom line is that amps in receivers are now downgraded and NOT rated for four ohms any longer. Because of BSC most speakers will actually be four ohm or less and not 8 ohm.

I think this woofer tester needs to be employed before any speaker with no reliable third part measurements needs to be tested with this, before connection to any current receiver with NO spec below 6 ohms.

In fact really every member should own that device.

As far as his fault, then failed output devices are by far the commonest reason for sudden failure and going into protection. He had the loud tell tale pop prior of the sudden large DC offset going through the speaker cut short by protection operating promptly.

Those speakers I think will cause a problem for a lot of the current crop of receivers. Don't be fooled by the 8 ohm nominal rating and the sensitivity rating. In this case, and I suspect many others, this is leading purchasers/owners astray.

You can say what you like, but the hard data above really spotlights the problem. Receiver bloat is going to create carnage from here on out in my view.

Either we need to go to pre/pro with external amps or active speakers. Active speakers would really solve the problem as you can actively increase power output with out creating difficult loads.

With current trends passive speakers should really be gone.
I don't see the Atmos module on the speakers....but I missed the photo in any case. Some avrs still are suitable for 4 ohm, but tend to be flagship models. Active speakers have potential, as long as you have an outlet near each speaker and don't mind the additional wires. Carnage I think is still a bit strong. Avrs do have challenges but I don't see how it particularly relates in this case (it may flesh out as such, but it's just guessing really).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
7,281 17 25
#11
I don't see the Atmos module on the speakers....but I missed the photo in any case. Some avrs still are suitable for 4 ohm, but tend to be flagship models. Active speakers have potential, as long as you have an outlet near each speaker and don't mind the additional wires. Carnage I think is still a bit strong. Avrs do have challenges but I don't see how it particularly relates in this case (it may flesh out as such, but it's just guessing really).
The Atmos channel is not driven from the front left and right amps. For certain all those tower speakers using those gold Klipsch drivers will have the same impedance curve. This is the first time I have seen an impedance curve for those speakers.

For ages we have been advising people that those Klipsch speakers are an easy load because they are 8 ohm and sensitive. Well we were wrong. Unless I can find a speaker with data that shows it an easy load I will not advise a speaker I don't know be connected to any receiver not rated for 4 ohm use.

Actually as I have said before any speaker with two woofers pretty much has to be four ohm or less if it is properly BSC compensated.

So any receiver rated only to 6 ohms without a 4 ohm spec. is actually basically useless, unless you intend to drive bookshelves and even some of those have impressive impedance dips.

The current range of receivers really are highly suspect and of very limited application.

If people want receivers, then they need to be much more expensive and bigger, or they need to have current limiters, which would probably limit them to about 25 watts into four ohms. This would be enough for most and probably a good solution. After all in the tube era 10 watts per channel was the rule, 20 watts was a powerful amp and 50 watts a very powerful amp.

The draw back is that for people who try to get high spl. would encounter sudden very hard clipping. That however is preferable to blowing up power amps.
 
T

Theraphosa

Audiophyte
#12
Wow. Very interesting turn of the discussion.
Actually, the speakers are the (less expensive) Klipsch RP28F. They all look very much alike. There is a 10" sub in the system as well from the same series.
I'm a bit fuzzy on the math and specs, but it makes me wonder why 10 minutes with a turntable on popped the amp, whereas a normal night of 4 or 5hrs of movies and TV (at maybe even higher volume levels) for almost a year had no effects.
Is this a fault that deteriorates the components over time? I know that when I first got the system, I left it playing for over 10hrs at a time occasionally to "break in" the speakers.
I certainly have more to think about.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
7,281 17 25
#13
Wow. Very interesting turn of the discussion.
Actually, the speakers are the (less expensive) Klipsch RP28F. They all look very much alike. There is a 10" sub in the system as well from the same series.
I'm a bit fuzzy on the math and specs, but it makes me wonder why 10 minutes with a turntable on popped the amp, whereas a normal night of 4 or 5hrs of movies and TV (at maybe even higher volume levels) for almost a year had no effects.
Is this a fault that deteriorates the components over time? I know that when I first got the system, I left it playing for over 10hrs at a time occasionally to "break in" the speakers.
I certainly have more to think about.
No, it was coincidence. It was ready to blow. Even if you were to assume the turntable did set it off, it is still junk. It should not blow however you connect a turntable.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,726 7 1
#14
I got this receiver about a year ago and have used it mostly to power my home cinema at relatively low levels. It's worked flawlessly with a 5.1 Klipsch speaker system.
Just this week, I added a Fluance RT-81 turntable (with built in pre-amp). I hooked it up to the CD analog inputs and boosted the source input through the receiver by 10db.
I played two albums without any problems (again at moderate levels). Sounded great. This morning I put on Dark Side of the Moon, and within minutes there was a "pop" and the receiver went into protected mode.
Tried factory reset, it would start to initialize and then go back to protected mode. Even called customer support (who were timely in getting back to me, but unable to fix the problem).
At no point has this thing ever been abused, or even played at very high volume.
(I'm and old guy with no kids at home and my wife thinks it's too complicated to do anything more than turn on the satellite TV!)

Needless to say, I'm thinking that the turntable has a something to do with the failure, it just seems more than a coincidence.
I'll be sending it off to a Service Center, but I'd like to avoid a repeat of this failure, and I'd still like to delve into my LP's from time to time.

Any suggestions?
To narrow down the root cause, we need more information. If you don't mind, please tell us:
1. Are we correct to assume you were listening in 2 channel stereo mode using the turntable when it popped.
2. Your seating distance from the L,R speakers.
3. The volume position when it popped. Example: -15, -10 etc.
4. Did you run auto setup on you receiver? If yes, what are the levels of the L,R channels set to, e.g. -1, +2 etc.
5. Was Audyssey turn on, or off, if on, was dynamic EQ on.
6. What exactly did you mean by boosting the input by 10 dB, how was that done? In fact, we need to know the specifications of that turntable preamp, the output details for sure, otherwise at the minimum we need to know how loud, i.e. the SPL was just before it failed.

I agree with @TLS Guy that the speakers, especially if it has very low impedance dips, could have done the killing, but given the right speakers, it can kill even a 4 ohm stable power amplifier so I don't think we should jump to conclusion yet.

As an example, some of the larger Klipsch speakers such as the RF-7 III, should be able to kill just about most 200 WPC power amps if you let them, simply by turning up the volume, or "boosting the input". Conversely, no speakers with 4 ohm or even 3 ohm impedance dip is going to kill you tiny X3300W, if you sit 8 ft from the speakers and with volume set to -25 listening to average spl of 75 dB or less.

So if you can provide the information to allow us to rule out the speakers, then we can move on to the next suspect.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
6,778 16 6
#15
Regarding the "boost in Input by 10dB", does it matter if his final actual volume is not loud (say 75dB max) ?

I've never done this, but I think it's in the Analog Input setup under the Option menu.

Were there any fans used (atop the AVR) to dissipate heat?

I've used the Denon X3100 and AVR-3112 (with fans) to power many towers (Philharmonic 3, Dynaudio, Focal, B&W 802D, RBH SX-T2, RBH SVT Towers, and more) for family parties.

I think my AVR-3312 has developed issues (buzzing noise when using external amps). But when using internal AVR amps, both seem to be working okay, at least for now. :eek: :D
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
Ratings
4,483 22 4
#16
I have a couple of comments to offer:
First: If you have pets disconnect your speaker wires and run them through your fingers. My brother went through 2 amps before discovering a very well hidden place where a cat claw had been strategically inserted into his speaker cable! We had done the traditional inspection of the terminals for loose strands of wires and looked for kinks along the length of the wire, you would not see this damage unless you knew exactly where to look and it was discovered when my brother was moving his system and he felt it while coiling the speaker cable!

Second: This is not the RP series of speakers (check again, @Theraphosa ). More likely it is the R-28f, or of that series. The RP series are not front ported as the speakers in the photo are. I suspect the same conditions as mentioned are likely valid for this speaker and appreciate the analysis/explanation @TLS Guy provided, but have to point out this error.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,726 7 1
#17
Regarding the "boost in Input by 10dB", does it matter if his final actual volume is not loud (say 75dB max) ?
Great point, I was just about going to edit my questions to include the specs of the turntable preamp and would be nice if we have an idea of the spl he was listening to at his seat position.

It does matter in terms of sound quality if the gain structure is too messed up, even if the speaker output is kept low by turning down the volume. It also may do harm to the input stage as TLSG sort of alluded to, if the "turntable preamp" output is already high enough for the CD input. It really depends on how and where it is done. He said the turntable has it's own preamp, so he may or may not have done it at the AVR. I do agree likely the AVR because of the term "dB" being used.

Were there any fans used (atop the AVR) to dissipate heat?

I've used the Denon X3100 and AVR-3112 (with fans) to power many towers (Philharmonic 3, Dynaudio, Focal, B&W 802D, RBH SX-T2, RBH SVT Towers, and more) for family parties.

I think my AVR-3312 has developed issues (buzzing noise when using external amps). But when using internal AVR amps, both seem to be working okay, at least for now. :eek::D
That wasn't just the 3312, I read about similar behavior reported by Marantz owners too, even the AV7005 that I owned one at the same but no buzz/hum. That issue was most likely due to poor solder joint(s) on the grounding scheme, iirc @TLSGuy also mentioned that and I would agree with him on that one. I have tried the X3400H and own the X4400H, no such issue but I am sure some units will have such issue as they sell them by the thousands, and no QA systems are perfect enough to catch every imperfect solder joints (if that is in fact the root cause).
 
T

Theraphosa

Audiophyte
#18
To narrow down the root cause, we need more information. If you don't mind, please tell us:
1. Are we correct to assume you were listening in 2 channel stereo mode using the turntable when it popped.
2. Your seating distance from the L,R speakers.
3. The volume position when it popped. Example: -15, -10 etc.
4. Did you run auto setup on you receiver? If yes, what are the levels of the L,R channels set to, e.g. -1, +2 etc.
5. Was Audyssey turn on, or off, if on, was dynamic EQ on.
6. What exactly did you mean by boosting the input by 10 dB, how was that done? In fact, we need to know the specifications of that turntable preamp, the output details for sure, otherwise at the minimum we need to know how loud, i.e. the SPL was just before it failed.

I agree with @TLS Guy that the speakers, especially if it has very low impedance dips, could have done the killing, but given the right speakers, it can kill even a 4 ohm stable power amplifier so I don't think we should jump to conclusion yet.

As an example, some of the larger Klipsch speakers such as the RF-7 III, should be able to kill just about most 200 WPC power amps if you let them, simply by turning up the volume, or "boosting the input". Conversely, no speakers with 4 ohm or even 3 ohm impedance dip is going to kill you tiny X3300W, if you sit 8 ft from the speakers and with volume set to -25 listening to average spl of 75 dB or less.

So if you can provide the information to allow us to rule out the speakers, then we can move on to the next suspect.
1. It was in Dolby Surround at the time.
2. Approx 12ft
3. Not sure of exact volume, low to moderate. I prefer lower volumes to listen for nuances in LPs and to reduce the effects of "pops" on the speakers.
4. Yes to auto set up, did not write down the levels.
5. Audyssey off, dynamic EQ off.
6. There is an option in the input menu of the receiver to boost source level.
Per the Manual: "This function corrects the playback level of the selected input source’s
audio input. Make this setting if there are differences in the input volume levels
between the different sources." There is the ability to boost/subract +/- 12db.

When I initially added the turntable, I forgot that I had to change the source for the CD input from the HDMI to the analog jacks. I got no sound from the speakers. I thought that the turntable's pre-amp was inadequate. I tried boosting the source to see if it made a difference. Obviously, it didn't. I finally remembered how to change the input from HDMI to the RCA plugs, and neglected to go back and reset the boost to 0db.

In answer to another question, there was no external cooling fan. Normally overheating has not been an issue. I'd checked it frequently for the first few months after the install. Probably would checked after the turntable install, but it was only the third time I'd played a record. I did notice that is was a bit hotter than normal when I was unplugging the speakers. At the time, I thought that one of the possibilities was that it had gone into protection mode because of a thermal fault.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,726 7 1
#19
1. It was in Dolby Surround at the time.
2. Approx 12ft
3. Not sure of exact volume, low to moderate. I prefer lower volumes to listen for nuances in LPs and to reduce the effects of "pops" on the speakers.
4. Yes to auto set up, did not write down the levels.
5. Audyssey off, dynamic EQ off.
6. There is an option in the input menu of the receiver to boost source level.
Per the Manual: "This function corrects the playback level of the selected input source’s
audio input. Make this setting if there are differences in the input volume levels
between the different sources." There is the ability to boost/subract +/- 12db.

When I initially added the turntable, I forgot that I had to change the source for the CD input from the HDMI to the analog jacks. I got no sound from the speakers. I thought that the turntable's pre-amp was inadequate. I tried boosting the source to see if it made a difference. Obviously, it didn't. I finally remembered how to change the input from HDMI to the RCA plugs, and neglected to go back and reset the boost to 0db.

In answer to another question, there was no external cooling fan. Normally overheating has not been an issue. I'd checked it frequently for the first few months after the install. Probably would checked after the turntable install, but it was only the third time I'd played a record. I did notice that is was a bit hotter than normal when I was unplugging the speakers. At the time, I thought that one of the possibilities was that it had gone into protection mode because of a thermal fault.
So if you forgot to 0 out the input "boost", as soon as you assigned the input correctly to the RCA analog and got sound it would sound very loud right. Did you then turn down the volume to compensate? If you did, what was the volume position? If you were in Dolby surround, you would be getting sound from all 5 speakers right?

Without knowing the spl, it is hard to gauge how hard the amp is working, your "moderate" could be someone's "loud". So it is important that we know the volume and the level. You can still read the level by pressing:
Setup/Speakers/Audyssey Setup/Check Results/Levels

Until then, if I assume the levels are within a couple dB + or -, and your moderate level is about 75 dB average, the X3300W should be outputting no more than 0.5 W/channel. The screen shot below shows the calculations based on your Klipsch speakers having sensitivity of at least 94 dB/1 W/1 meter for nominal impedance of 8 ohms, obviously we are not sure about this as we don't have the Klipsh model numbers but I think 94 dB/1 W/1 meter should put us on the conservative side, for the popular Klipsch models anyway.

So to allow for the impedance dips all the way to 2 ohms, I de-rate the sensitivity by 9 dB in order to keep the current the same in order to use this calculator that is based on 1W/1 m, and so that @TLS Guy cannot complain. The phase angle thing only affects the power (hence heat) dissipation split between the output transistors and the loudspeakers, it does not factor in the current calculations as such. (I understand this can confuse people because as show by the power formula, phase angle does affect current calculation, but....)



1544223004768.png


So even given the information we have now, it does not look like the speakers killed the receiver. Still possible, but not very likely.
 

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