Denon AVR-689 and HDMI

[heinza1983]

Hi all,
this is my first post and I am a newbie to high fidelity.

I have just bought a Denon AVR-689 receiver. I like to think I made a good move, as Denon is renowned for audio quality and I paid AU$450 for it (US$400~) since I can't afford more than that. I thought that's a good value-for-money compromise.

One of the drawbacks of this unit is the lack of support for audio via HDMI. HDMI only carries video signal.

I thought that's not really going to be a problem, because I can either hook up all my devices (HD sat box, HD pvr and PlayStation 3 (for games,DVDs and BluRay)) to the AV via s/pdif or digital coaxial (2 each available on the AV) or run all them through the full hd tv's hdmi ports and run a single s/pdif cable back from the TV into the AV.

My questions are:

- is there any advantage in doing one rather than the other in terms of quality, dolby/dts support, audio channels, etc.?

- I've read that s/pdif doesn't carry Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (is that how it's called?) -which by the way the AV does not support anyway-. I thought this is not going to be much of an issue for me -they told me TrueHD only offers 3%~4% better quality over the Dolby/DTS formats supported by the AVR-689. However, my concern is, whenever should I play a BluRay disc encoded with either of these new standards, what's going to happen, considering I can't carry any audio signal through the HDMI inputs on the AV?

- generally speaking, what are the drawbacks in terms of audio quality, support for dolvy/dts standards and multichannel, of an AV that can't handle HDMI audio?

- what are the limitations of S/PDIF and Coaxial over HDMI in these regards? what signals can/can't they carry?
(for example, I was reading that the early PS3s that used to play SACD would support multichannel output only via HDMI, whereas via A/V or S/Pdif the signal would be downgraded to 2-channel stereo )

- as a general rule, what types of connections are to prefer for devices such as the ones mentioned above, considering HDMI audio for me is not an option? (s/pdif, coaxial, analog are the 3 audio input options). that is, how would I best hook up devices to the AV to fully exploit its capability such as 7.1, dolby digital ex + prologic IIx, dts ES + Neo:6 + 96/24, in the least lossy way / to avoid compression, resampling etc.?

- how would I best connect a SACD player (or a DVD-A for that matter), should I buy one, to this Denon AV, now that I've realized -much to my disappointment- that the PS3 outputs SACD's multichannel signal only through HDMI (btw, what if I run the PS3 via HDMI into the TV, which accepts both audio and video, than take the signal into the AV via s/pdif? would I preserve all the audio features of the SACD or is the signal downsampled to stereo? I know early PS3 firmwares would convert DSD to DTS over s/pdif, but that's no longer possible. I assume the TV would have to do the same?)
PS Not that I am particularly concerned about this for the supposedly better quality of SACD/DVD-A over other formats (isn't a good old vinyl still a better option in many cases?) but more because I am enthralled at the idea of listening to "surround music" -something like a concert on a video DVD recorded in surround I suppose?- or artists that may natively compose music for multichannel listening (I wonder if there are any?)

I keep asking myself if buying this AV was a smart move, which I chose for the good quality of the brand over other AVs with hdmi audio, TrueHD etc. but of not quite as good a brand in the same price range...
+ 7.1 and multi-zone support in the Denon-689
What are your thoughts about it?

Many thanks in advance for a kind reply!

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new receiver! Here are my thoughts on some of your questions:

- is there any advantage in doing one rather than the other in terms of quality, dolby/dts support, audio channels, etc.?

Most likely, yes. Every TV but one that I've researched will convert all HDMI audio input into two-channel audio for output from the digital audio output. Odds are, your TV will to. If it does do that, then it would be much better to connect the audio from your components directly to the receiver. The difference in sound will be very noticeable.

- I've read that s/pdif doesn't carry Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (is that how it's called?) -which by the way the AV does not support anyway-. I thought this is not going to be much of an issue for me -they told me TrueHD only offers 3%~4% better quality over the Dolby/DTS formats supported by the AVR-689. However, my concern is, whenever should I play a BluRay disc encoded with either of these new standards, what's going to happen, considering I can't carry any audio signal through the HDMI inputs on the AV?

Which blu-ray player do you have? If it acts like my Panasonic DMP-BD60, the player will convert the audio to Dolby Digital or DTS for output through the digital audio output. I used my blu-ray player with my non-HDMI receiver just fine until I got a new receiver. If it has multi-channel (e.g. 5.1 or 7.1) analog outputs and built-in decoders for the new codecs, you can connect it to your receiver using those analog connections.

- what are the limitations of S/PDIF and Coaxial over HDMI in these regards? what signals can/can't they carry?

You pretty much listed them here. Those connections can't carry the new lossless codecs (Dolby Trued HD and DTS-HD MA) because they don't have enough bandwidth, and they won't carry SACD or DVD-A audio because of copy protection.

- as a general rule, what types of connections are to prefer for devices such as the ones mentioned above, considering HDMI audio for me is not an option? (s/pdif, coaxial, analog are the 3 audio input options). that is, how would I best hook up devices to the AV to fully exploit its capability such as 7.1, dolby digital ex + prologic IIx, dts ES + Neo:6 + 96/24, in the least lossy way / to avoid compression, resampling etc.?

I prefer digital connections always, but that's primarily because the multi-channel analog inputs on my receivers won't use any of the internal bass management or EQ settings on my receivers. Other people here prefer to use the multi-channel analog connections.

- how would I best connect a SACD player (or a DVD-A for that matter), should I buy one, to this Denon AV...

Your only way to get audio from those formats on that receiver is to use the analog inputs (preferably the multi-channel inputs for multi-channel discs).

...What are your thoughts about it?

If you aren't going to listen to SACD or DVD-A, then I think that you're fine with audio processing over HDMI. Some people have noted a noticeable difference between Dolby Digital/DTS and the newer Dolby TrueHD/DTS-MD MA codecs, while I can't tell much difference. I happen to buy a new receiver with HDMI audio processing primarily because I wanted a digital audio connection for SACD and DVD-A. If it weren't for that, I would have stuck with my older receiver. If you decide that you really want the newer lossless codecs and SACD/DVD-A over digital connections, then you'll want to get a receiver that can process audio over HDMI.

 

[The 7th Taylor]

- what are the limitations of S/PDIF and Coaxial over HDMI in these regards? what signals can/can't they carry?
(for example, I was reading that the early PS3s that used to play SACD would support multichannel output only via HDMI, whereas via A/V or S/Pdif the signal would be downgraded to 2-channel stereo )

That's right. The undocumented feature that converted SACD multichannel to DTS 5.1 for optical output disappeard in firmware v2.01 as sudden as it had appeared in v2.00.
Now analog and optical audio output will give you stereo only. The analog output with very good quality, the optical output with 'red book' sound quality. For multichannel, you have to have HDMI.

For more information see the PS3 SACD FAQ.

- how would I best connect a SACD player (or a DVD-A for that matter), should I buy one, to this Denon AV, now that I've realized -much to my disappointment- that the PS3 outputs SACD's multichannel signal only through HDMI

With 6 'RCA' type connections i.e. analog multichannel.

(btw, what if I run the PS3 via HDMI into the TV, which accepts both audio and video, than take the signal into the AV via s/pdif? would I preserve all the audio features of the SACD or is the signal downsampled to stereo? I know early PS3 firmwares would convert DSD to DTS over s/pdif, but that's no longer possible. I assume the TV would have to do the same?)

If you connect it that way, the PS3 likely will not output high-resolution multichannel PCM because your TV cannot handle it.
If it can, then you still have no way to get it on the SPDIF. There is no device that will do that conversion for you. It requires massive processing power (that TVs would not be able to provide), clever software and a DTS encoder license. The latter is what the PS3 solution lacked.

PS Not that I am particularly concerned about this for the supposedly better quality of SACD/DVD-A over other formats (isn't a good old vinyl still a better option in many cases?)

Hardly in the case of stereo and not at all when you realize the potential of multichannel.

... but more because I am enthralled at the idea of listening to "surround music" -something like a concert on a video DVD recorded in surround I suppose?- or artists that may natively compose music for multichannel listening (I wonder if there are any?)

Too few, sadly, but the multichannel studio albums I know interest me far more than any live recording. That's a matter of personal taste however.

 

[heinza1983]

urgent opinion please!!

thank you for your replies!
unfortunately the PS3 slim that I have just bought only has SPDIF and HDMI audio outputs (+yellow/white/red combined into a sony-designed type of connection).
Does this mean that the PS3 will downgrade a BluRay with either or both Dolby TrueHD - DTS HD MA to DD and DTS respectively (with a max of 5.1, but that's fine by me) OR that it won't play back the TrueHD/MA audio tracks at all?
In other words, if a BD comes with TrueHD and/or DTS MA as the only top-quality audio tracks, and the 'backup' tracks being, say, stereo 2.0, will the PS3 output the TrueHD/DTS MA tracks, downgraded to the closest quality achievable seen the limitations of SPDIF, or will it play only the stereo 2.0 track (in this example)?

If it does the downgrading, will I really be able to tell difference compared to a true TrueHD/DTS HD on an amplifier that supports these codecs?


I have the option to take the AVR-689 back to the shop and exchange it for either a Denon AVR-590 or an ONKYO TX-SR606 for an additional $200.
The 590 is only 5.1 and has no multi zone though (but I'm not particularly concerned), whereas the Onkyo does, but they both support the new HD codecs + audio over HDMI (+video upscaling) unlike the 689.

Do you think it's worth exchanging it for $200 more for the sake of enjoying the HD codecs, having audio over HDMI (the only advantage being when dealing with the new codecs, right?), SACD/DVD-A through HDMI instead of analog, etc, or stick with my AVR-689 and save $200?
Should I return it, do you suggest I go for the Denon AVR-590 or the Onkyo?
I also read that the Denon AVR-590 does not support direct bitstreaming from SACD/DVD-A players though, it will have to go LPCM (I think).
I am not sure about the Onkyo (do you happen to know?).

I only have less than 2 days to think about this!!
I'd be extremely grateful if you could give your opinion as soon as practicable! Many thanks!!

 

[Ares]

Okay when you setup audio on the PS3 you will have options from 2.0, DD 5.1, DTS LPCM 2.1-7.1 now for the sake of time if you have a receiver that can decode the Dolby True HD and DTS HD you will select every option because this tells the PS3 what to send to the receiver. Now lets say your receiver doesn't have the True HD and DTS HD then you will select 2.0,DD5.1,DTS blu-ray has all the codecs embeded in the disc and when you setup the PS3 it will choose the highest quality codecs from the options you gave it. So first things first you need to setup your PS3's audio to match the capabilities of your receiver.

 

[OmegaNemesis28]

Okay when you setup audio on the PS3 you will have options from 2.0, DD 5.1, DTS LPCM 2.1-7.1 now for the sake of time if you have a receiver that can decode the Dolby True HD and DTS HD you will select every option because this tells the PS3 what to send to the receiver. Now lets say your receiver doesn't have the True HD and DTS HD then you will select 2.0,DD5.1,DTS blu-ray has all the codecs embeded in the disc and when you setup the PS3 it will choose the highest quality codecs from the options you gave it. So first things first you need to setup your PS3's audio to match the capabilities of your receiver.

In fact, the PS3 can automatically detect what it can and can't through Optical (I think).

 

[heinza1983]

final decision

Thanks,
so when I play a BD the PS3 would detect the best audio track, right? (I am saying this because most discs allow you to choose what track to play from the disc -if they're like DVDs (don't have any BD yet)

now, is there any effective advantage with TrueHD/DTS MA over ProLogicIIx and the latest DTS's worth the $200 more, also thinking in the long term?
in which case, Denon AVR-590 (only 5.1 and less connectivity) or Onkyo tx-sr606 (7.1 and more connectivity, but not sure about quality over Denon)?
or any other model with relevant features worth considering in the price range? ($500~)
as for the SACD/DVD-A support?

Thanks again!!

PS
Too bad the PS3 has no other way to output the TrueHD/DTS MA sound than over HDMI, considering the decoding is handled by the PS3, then sent to the receiver via LPCM! (although now the slim PS3 supports direct bitstreaming to the AVR)

 

[Ares]

Which of the 2 versions of the PS3 do you own slim or fat? the slim can do True HD and DTS HD via bitstream whereas the fat can not. Both versions of the PS3 can auto detect the best audio codecs through bitstream, just the fat is limited in the options it has (True HD,DTS HD) but remember you have to set it up from the start to give it these options. If you don't give it the option to do DD 5.1 the PS3 won't take it upon itself to choose this option for you when the source material has DD5.1 soundtrack available.