Denon AVR-3805 and 4 ohm speakers

[corysmith01]

I was wondering if there's any others out there who have an AVR-3805 and 4 ohm speakers. Yeah, I know, it's not optimal. But it's what I've got. Sure, I'd love to add a 2-channel amp, but that's not in the cards right now. Anyway, just to make sure, or get their point of view, I e-mailed Denon asking if they thought this would be fine, or if they'd recommend against it. The 3805 was certainly not entry level, so I figured at moderate levels, 4 ohm speakers shouldn't give it any trouble...and they haven't so far. But I just thought I'd check. Their e-mail response back to me said this:

"I hate to say it but Denon and 4 ohm speakers do not work together. The speakers could blow the receiver. sorry to give you the bad news."

Wow. I was quite taken aback. At the same time, I'm not looking to do damage. So, should I take this as "the company line" meaning they can't really tell me to use it, but in actuality it's probably fine? Or, is there cause for concern here? Should I be looking at either external amplification, or, a pair of 8 ohm speakers? Just wondering if anyone else has been using at 3805 with 4 ohm speakers and if you have or haven't encountered any trouble doing so. Thanks.

 

[pbarach1]

Just wondering if anyone else has been using at 3805 with 4 ohm speakers and if you have or haven't encountered any trouble doing so. Thanks.

If Denon tells you not to use 4-ohm speakers, why chance it? Look on p. 15 of the manual, too, where is says to use speakers of 6 to 16 ohms for front and surrounds. As well, the specs show 8-ohm and 6-ohm ratings, but not 4-ohm ratings (except for "dynamic power," whatever that means).

The 3805 puts out nice, clean sound for the money. If you don't already own speakers, I'd suggest that you'd get the most for your audio dollar if you buy the best reasonably efficient 8-ohm speakers that fit in your budget, rather than skimping on speakers and buying expensive electronics that won't make an audible improvement through second-rate speakers. There are plenty of good 8-ohm speakers to choose from.

If you decide later on to put more money into your setup, then most audio stores will let you try their equipment at home so that you can see if other electronics give you better sound from the best speakers that you were able to afford.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I've been running 4 ohm speakers off my Denon 2805 for a year and a half. See sig for speaker specifics. Not all 4ohm speakers are the same. I use a sub for everything under 80hz. If your speakers go lower they may require more power. Some speakers are also more efficient than others.

The story I got before was something along the lines of getting rated for 4ohms required some special certification and costs, or something like that. I may be off a little in my recolection. Anyway, I'd use them and see if the circuit trips.

Jack

 

[corysmith01]

If Denon tells you not to use 4-ohm speakers, why chance it? Look on p. 15 of the manual, too, where is says to use speakers of 6 to 16 ohms for front and surrounds.

I was wondering b/c I had posed the same question to Marantz about the SR7500 which is also only rated down to 6 ohms. Their response was that it should be fine. So, I was wondering if the same would hold true for Denon.

The 3805 puts out nice, clean sound for the money. If you don't already own speakers, I'd suggest that you'd get the most for your audio dollar if you buy the best reasonably efficient 8-ohm speakers that fit in your budget, rather than skimping on speakers and buying expensive electronics that won't make an audible improvement through second-rate speakers.

Yeah, I hear ya. But I already have a nice set of speakers, Onix Ref 1's. Which is why I was wondering about the receiver. The speakers are set. Just wondering if the 3805 would be fine, or if I needed to look elsewhere.

I've been running 4 ohm speakers off my Denon 2805 for a year and a half. See sig for speaker specifics. Not all 4ohm speakers are the same. I use a sub for everything under 80hz. If your speakers go lower they may require more power. Some speakers are also more efficient than others.

Yeah, I've also been running this set up (3805/Ref 1's) for about a month and have had no problems. But, I guess I was just looking to make sure. And, well, you see the response from Denon. The Ref 1's are rated down to 42Hz and I run them full range most of the time...still, no problems yet. I guess only time will tell. But, that's not really a wager I want to make.

Hmmm...new amp? New speakers? New receiver (Rotel/NAD)?

 

[PENG]

I was wondering if there's any others out there who have an AVR-3805 and 4 ohm speakers. Yeah, I know, it's not optimal. But it's what I've got. Sure, I'd love to add a 2-channel amp, but that's not in the cards right now. Anyway, just to make sure, or get their point of view, I e-mailed Denon asking if they thought this would be fine, or if they'd recommend against it. The 3805 was certainly not entry level, so I figured at moderate levels, 4 ohm speakers shouldn't give it any trouble...and they haven't so far. But I just thought I'd check. Their e-mail response back to me said this:

"I hate to say it but Denon and 4 ohm speakers do not work together. The speakers could blow the receiver. sorry to give you the bad news."

I would say your own reasoning (e.g. you said moderate level) makes more sense than that of the person at Denon who gave you a cut and dry or CYA type of response.

Take a look of their FAQ: http://usa.denon.com/1854.asp#Q10

This is their quick answer to Q11

"11) Can I use 4 ohm loudspeakers with my Denon receiver or power amplifier?

Yes, you certainly can."

If you read on, they sort of qualify/rationalize their response a little, but basically you can do it as long as you don't get carried away. As you already know from the beginning, a receiver such as the 3805, is not meant to be used with 4 ohm speakers without being careful about it.

Perhaps you should email Denon again, this time may be bypass whoever responded to your question, go right to the top and ask them to clarify what they said in the FAQ area vs. the response you received by email. By the way, if what you quoted was the only thing that person said in his/her response, he/she owe you an explanation to such vague and unqualified answer. "The speaker could blow the receiver"???, give me a break...........

Please also read page 16 of the instruction manual for an explanation of how the protector circuit protects the set from playing for LONG periods of time at HIGH volumes when speakers of LOWER than 4 ohms are connected.................. Note that I bolded all "qualifiers" used in their explanation. They never tell you not to connect 4 ohms speakers. I think you will do no harm to your equipment as long as you exercise common sense, i.e. do it with caution, and don't push your luck.

 

[corysmith01]

Peng, thanks for the find. It's a relief, and that was my hunch all along. I was really surprised to read that this was a situation to be avoided. If it was a 15-- or 17-- level Denon, maybe. But the 3805 I thought for sure would be capable, with care being taken. I appreciate it.

As for the response, yes, that was the total of what was written back. I too found it very vague and ver abrupt. And the "blowing" part seemed a bit much. Wouldn't the protection kick in before? I think maybe I will follow up for a further explanation, quoting both the e-mail reply and the section under the FAQ's that you pointed out. Seems to be some differing opinions over there.

 

[PENG]

That FAQ thing has been there forever. If Denon made a mistake, they should have corrected it by now. Besides, the way they explain how the protector circuit work they certainly imply you can connect 4 ohms speakers as long as you don't crank the volume up too high and for too long.

That being said, for long term, I would suggest you plan on adding a low cost 200 to 300 WPC power amp. A 2 or 3 channel one should suffice. That way you can listen to any type of 2 channel stereo music at any volume you wish.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver w/ Ref 1's

Cory,
FYI, I am running Ref '1s on my lower end Yamaha HTR-5860 receiver with no problems. I am only driving a 2.1 system at moderate levels, but have never had a problem with the receiver getting too hot or shutting down. I plan to upgrade to an emotiva amp to drive a full Ref HT and house speakers, but the Yamaha has been doing fine.

As long as you have reasonable ventalation and the receiver doesn't get to hot or shutdown, I wouldn't worry about the denon. Enjoy the Ref 1's.

 

[corysmith01]

jcPanny, thanks for the vote of confidence. Yeah, I've taken those precautions. Plenty of ventilation. Oh, and coincidentally, I'm also running just 2.1 right now as well. With my living room being so small, a 5.1/7.1 set up is very impractical. I do plan to add a center though. But yeah, I've had no problems. Which is why I was so taken aback by their response.

And yes, I'm totally digging the Ref 1's. Of all the speakers I've had in the past two years or so (6 pairs), these have by far been my favorites.

 

[Nick250]

Cory, as I read the thread, I was thinking that if it were me I would have the speakers set to small and use the sub all the time. That way I would not worry every time I decided to crank it up. One less thing to worry about.

I must say I was tempted try out the Ref 1's when they were on sale, but I like my Studio 20s and one upgrade begets another upgrade and so on.

Nick

 

[Seth=L]

Consider this scenario, if the receiver is a prospect purchase and you want details about its performance before you buy and you visit a FAQ for the unit in question. The question about lower loads is a common one and since Denon would like for you to purchase their products, not NAD or Rotel. Then you purchase the product slightly based on the information you find in this FAQ. The Denon has a warranty and you call or email Denon to find out if it is all-right to use your 4 ohm speakers with the receiver, they say, "NO!, that is a terrible idea!". Why would they do that you wonder? Denon doesn't want to repair the unit while it is under warranty, because it costs them money.

Truth of the matter is, they should probably work fine. The Denon may not be stable on 4 ohm loads at higher levels as the amperage requirements will jump at lower frequencies. Ohms is nominal, not fixed, so the speaker could conceivably dip to 2 or 1 ohms, and at higher volumes could cause the amp to go into protect.

Given that you only use the receiver at moderate levels there shouldn't be a an immediate threat, but I wouldn't continue using the receiver to power the Onix Ref. 1s. I would start saving for an amp, if you have to get a smaller amplifier to conserve space Outlaw has some small power amps that work comfortably with difficult loads.

 

[jhanley]

I have been using 4 OHM Axiom M80's with a Denon 1905
entry level AVR for about a year with no problem.

 

[tarzanboy]

Consider this scenario, if the receiver is a prospect purchase and you want details about its performance before you buy and you visit a FAQ for the unit in question. The question about lower loads is a common one and since Denon would like for you to purchase their products, not NAD or Rotel. Then you purchase the product slightly based on the information you find in this FAQ. The Denon has a warranty and you call or email Denon to find out if it is all-right to use your 4 ohm speakers with the receiver, they say, "NO!, that is a terrible idea!". Why would they do that you wonder? Denon doesn't want to repair the unit while it is under warranty, because it costs them money.

Truth of the matter is, they should probably work fine. The Denon may not be stable on 4 ohm loads at higher levels as the amperage requirements will jump at lower frequencies. Ohms is nominal, not fixed, so the speaker could conceivably dip to 2 or 1 ohms, and at higher volumes could cause the amp to go into protect.

Given that you only use the receiver at moderate levels there shouldn't be a an immediate threat, but I wouldn't continue using the receiver to power the Onix Ref. 1s. I would start saving for an amp, if you have to get a smaller amplifier to conserve space Outlaw has some small power amps that work comfortably with difficult loads.

could you say which outlaws you are talking about? I plan on buying the Denon 3806 and will run into the same problem, but Price is driving my decision currently

 

[corysmith01]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to these. I'd love to add something like this...it's just cost prohibitive at the time.

 

[Seth=L]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to these. I'd love to add something like this...it's just cost prohibitive at the time.

Is size an issue, or just cost?

You should be fine for now, so long as you don't push the receiver, but upgrading the amp eventually is a very good idea. I certainly wouldn't get rid of the speakers or get a different receiver.

 

[corysmith01]

Is size an issue, or just cost?

Mostly cost. I could work something out on size. But $624 out-of-pocket, while not ridiculous, just isn't in the cards. That's why I was thinking about selling the 3805 and putting that towards a Rotel or a NAD on the used market. But, just a thought. I'm certainly not leaning towards it by any means.

You should be fine for now, so long as you don't push the receiver, but upgrading the amp eventually is a very good idea. I certainly wouldn't get rid of the speakers or get a different receiver.

Agreed. The receiver is great and does everything I need it to do. And the speakers are stupid good. So yeah, adding and amp would probably be the best move.

 

[Nick250]

Cory, maybe I missed it, buy have you decided to go 2.1 all of the time instead of some of the time? *Maybe I am wrong*, but my thinking is that using the sub all the time with speakers set to small would allow you to play the system loudly without over taxing the 3805.

Nick

 

[corysmith01]

Nick, no, I haven't gone with 2.1 all the time. In fact, most of the time it's 2.0. I use the sub when watching a movie, but I listen to music much more often, and out of courtesy (or at least attempted courtesy ) to my neighbors, I limit the sub use when I'm playing music, just running pure direct to the speakers.

I'm starting to think this is fine. I did go back through the manual and there are 2 separate mentions to using 4 ohm speakers in there. Once on page 16 where they say:

"The protector circuit may be activated if the set is played for long periods of time at high volumes when speakers with an impedance lower than the specified impedance (for example speakers with an impedance of lower than 4 Ω/ohms) are connected."

And then again in the back when they list "Dynamic Power" in the specifications section. With multiple mentions, I'm starting to believe it's fine, especially considering the low-to-moderate levels I use it for due to my apartment constraints.

 

[Seth=L]

Who said you needed to get a $600 plus amp for those speakers? You could get a pro-amp from Behringer, Crown, and many others. You might also try the used market.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver w/ Ref 1's

I was a little concerned about my Yamaha driving the Ref 1's until I read the AH review and benchmark of the Yamaha RX-V659. It delivered 100 Watts per channel into 4 ohms, 2 channels driven.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v659/rx-v659-measurements-analysis

The Ref 1's will be really loud (in my room) before they start drawing 100 Watts.