Denon AVR-1611 blowing PSB Alpha Series (LR1/CLR1) Speakers

[M Code]

You seem to assume the unit is only power supply limited. Based on many review lab measurements I have seen, many HK and NAD amps are actually more so amplifier limited than power supply limited, while the opposite seems to be true for Yamaha AVRs. Example: at a given price point, the HK model would likely put out the same or more watts in ACD than the Yamaha, but in 1and 2 channel driven, especially into 4 ohms the Yamaha will almost win by a wide margin every time. I provided links to HTM, HCC, S&V lab measurements in the past so I am not going by just saying.

Another point, let me beat 3 dB to this, your figures do not factor in amp efficiencies at different load, power factor (cosine of phase angle between voltage and current phasors, impedance characteristics etc.) As a rule of thumb okay.

just my 0.0001c

Way beyond assumption..
My example was the referenced Denon platform (1611) and we know it very well having worked directly on its development. I have tons of Audio Precision measurements for the Denon and so we know its strengths and weaknesses intimately...
The amplifier is designed for 6/8 Ohm operation with minimal power supply regulation. As the impedance decreases below 6 Ohms the power output will climb but then thermal protection and current limiting circuits will be activated as the power transformer will exceed its design capabilities, overheat and fail.

Keep in mind...
This is a mass market product built for a price, as one goes into the higher Denon AVR models, heavier duty components and design specifications are utilizied as the $ design budget is higher..

IMHO...
I don't want to generalize about the Harman/Kardon because they do in fact take a different design approach for their amplifier sections and power supplies than other brands. Thats why they are typically 20-40% heavier in weight, due to a bigger power transformer and more heat sinking. As for HK products, I also have tons of internal data including costs and actual test measurements.

In todays mass market, the budget entry-level AVRs are built for 1 thing only.. PRICE.
@ CES I had a meeting with some members of the design team for the Denon 391, their only request was continual cost reductions of the crucial internal components. But now with the Chinese RMB currency revaluation looming close by, the situation will be similar to the gas pump, component and manufacturing costs will definitely increase. Whether they are passed through to the end-buyer, remains to be seen. Of course, another alternative for the entry level AVRs is for a retailer such as Best Buy who will source their own AVRs under the Insignia brand..

Just my $0.02..

 

[PENG]

I agree with you that the whole industry plays games. That being said, the dollars/watt is not the only measure in which people purchase receivers and it should not be the only measure either. Yet you keep coming back to that same old ratio. If I had the money, I would by a NAD over all others because of my past experience with them at a friends house. It was an integrated amp but that was the most dynamic little integrated amp I've ever heard including those frfom Rotel, Yamaha, and Sansui.

I have never, ever said it was the only point to consider. Nor do I believe it myself. If I did, I would have bought the XPA-5 instead of the MM8003, a mere 140X2, about 100WX7, much less W/$ than the Emo. I keep coming to that same point for as long as people keep claiming the other game is somewhat better, more honest, noble etc. If anyone, like you, bring up other points other than the so called "honest watts", I would not say anything against it. Like I have never reacted to anyone's claim about NAD amp being more dynamic, reliable, heavier etc. I have also never said anything bad about HK. I came very close to pull my trigger on the HK AVR7300, then the 3600 and then the 7550 when they went on sale at the Future Shop. I have nothing against them at all. I am against people (not personal, just facts vs hearsays and misconceptions) telling the one sided story.

Note that in my post I said HK cannot win and then I put in bracker "in terms of power per watt only", meaning obviously there are other things to consider but in terms of dollars per watt only they cannot win. In other words they can win me over overall, but it will not be for more, or less power. I hope I make my point clear this time if not last time.

 

[PENG]

Way beyond assumption..
My example was the referenced Denon platform (1611) and we know it very well having worked directly on its development.

My first sentence "You seem to assume the unit is only power supply limited." referred to the 1611 (though even more so to HK models) and I did not believe an entry level Denon could do 175W 1 channel just because the power supply can handle it. Even my 4308 could not do it, according to several reviews, not into 8 ohms anyway. I believe its amplifier simply cannot sustain 175W even with a 1kVA power supply because the amplifier itself has its limitation. Now if you allow the THD to go high, at 1 kHz, into 8 ohms etc. then okay it may be possible.

I have great respect for your insider knowledge of consumer hi fi/ht electronics but your last several posts kind of surprised me.

 

[M Code]

My first sentence "You seem to assume the unit is only power supply limited." referred to the 1611 (though even more so to HK models) and I did not believe an entry level Denon could do 175W 1 channel just because the power supply can handle it. Even my 4308 could not do it, according to several reviews, not into 8 ohms anyway. I believe its amplifier simply cannot sustain 175W even with a 1kVA power supply because the amplifier itself has its limitation. Now if you allow the THD to go high, at 1 kHz, into 8 ohms etc. then okay it may be possible.

I have great respect for your insider knowledge of consumer hi fi/ht electronics but your last several posts kind of surprised me.

Basically even with 1 channel driven the amplifier (1611) can output a high peak power.. The question is what is How long? 1 minute, 30 seconds, 10 seconds, 1 second..
The output devices do have their own respective voltage/current maxs, and . as things are ramped up something has to happen...
Either:
a. The thermal rise is too great on either the transformer and/or heat sink
For the Denon designs, we found the power transformer was not strong and frequently its internal non-replaceable circuit breaker was activated.
b. The amplifier stage has multiple protection schemes including current limiting and thermal. Once the amplifier is being driven continuously its heat rise will be exponentially and will not last very long.

In our experience the weakest link in the lower Denon AVRs are the power supply, as the power transformer is the single highest cost component within an AVR. And as the amplifier is driven the hardest (regardless # of channels) the power supply starts to fold back which limits the available output power..

Just my $0.02..

 

[3db]

PENG.

Regardless of cost, NAD meets or exceeds its all channels driven test at full bandwidth. Thats all I'm saying. When NAD says 7x??? watts per channel, it will meet this. The others won't even though they advertise 7x???. I really don't care about 2 channel power tests and who is more dynamic because this isn't what is being compared or advertised. So from an honest watt terminology, NAD isn't hiding anything.

MCODE

From what I've just read, it seems like the entry level receivers should not be looked at from the likes of Denon, Yamaha, etc if they are going to be placed in a situation like the OP has put it in or as the main HT receiver in an environement where one knows, its going to be used at loud volume levels. As a background stereo receiver or as an HT receiver where the volume will not exceed much past normal talking volume, it would be OK to use.

 

[markw]

This was a match made in he!! that was bound to fail.

For party-level volume, you need speakers that can move a lot of air and enough clean power to drive them to suitable levels.

After all is said and done, it seems that neither those teeny, tiny speakers (which can't move a lot of air to begin with) and that (low-powered, wheezy, entry-level) receiver weren't up to the task of filling a room with loud noise during a party. For normal listening levels in a fairly quiet enviromment in a smaller room it would probably suffice, particularly for HT usage.

P.S. I think any rock-bottom, entry level receiver would have issues when pushed to these levels, particularly when in an "all channel stereo" type mode.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, in case the OP has not figured out by now, he needs to buy some BIG TOWER speakers with High Sensitivity (like Cerwin Vega) for his next party!!!

 

[rnatalli]

Denon's published power output spec for the 1611 is 75W/CH x 2 (2 channels driven) = 150W
Next question..

My next question is, since when did we start trusting specs the manufacturer is supplying with regards to amp power

In our experience the weakest link in the lower Denon AVRs are the power supply, as the power transformer is the single highest cost component within an AVR. And as the amplifier is driven the hardest (regardless # of channels) the power supply starts to fold back which limits the available output power..

I think that could be set for most budget receivers regardless of brand. The only sub $300 receivers I've seen with decent power supplies are HK and sometimes Onkyo. The new HK 1600 is a good example weighing in at 28lbs; I'm glad to see they're sticking with their philosophy

With regards to the 1611, it's clear to me the 1610 was better. It was heavier, had a slightly deeper chassis (probably to accomodate a larger power supply), a larger power draw (516W vs 350W), and only 5 channels to drive instead of 7. It's MSRP was lower to boot.

 

[anamorphic96]

The new HK 1600 is a good example weighing in at 28lbs; I'm glad to see they're sticking with their philosophy

The Harman Kardon 1600 weighs right around 20lbs. The weight advertised at the web site is not correct and is listed correctly in the manual at 20.7 and 25.3 lbs shipped.

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR1600_OM_ENG.WEB_ 11_04.pdf

 

[rnatalli]

The Harman Kardon 1600 weighs right around 20lbs. The weight advertised at the web site is not correct and is listed correctly in the manual at 20.7 and 25.3 lbs shipped.

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR1600_OM_ENG.WEB_ 11_04.pdf

Well that sucks

 

[Undedaabild]

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[anamorphic96]

Well that sucks

If it helps its the same amp action they have been using with the 1 series for many years. It's still a great receiver.

If not mistaken the 2 and 3 series are the same amp sections as the older models as well.

 

[rnatalli]

The Harman Kardon 1600 weighs right around 20lbs. The weight advertised at the web site is not correct and is listed correctly in the manual at 20.7 and 25.3 lbs shipped.

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR1600_OM_ENG.WEB_ 11_04.pdf

Something still isn't right. Take a look at the manual for the 2600. It says the weight is 44lbs and power consumption 1,405W That can't be right for a receiver at this price point. So it begs the question, is the website or manual correct for their 2010 receivers?

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR_2600_Owners_Manual_Eng.pdf

 

[anamorphic96]

Why does that not surprise me. I can tell your for certain the 1600 is only 20lbs because I have lifted one. But it does beg the question which of the numbers are correct for the 2600 and 3600.

It seems they are also only listing the two channel power numbers this year compared to previous years. So the 1600 and 2600 are probably 35 and 50 watts with all channels driven. The 3 series seems to be the same with 2 or 5 channels driven.

 

[rnatalli]

I would guess the 1600 to be the 20lbs, 2600=31.5lbs, and 3600=44lbs. As for the amp, we can always look inside and guess:

Here's the Onkyo 708 for comparison. Interesting, I thought the 708 had a fan in it. Looks like only the 608 does unless I just can't see it here.

 

[M Code]

The Harman Kardon 1600 weighs right around 20lbs. The weight advertised at the web site is not correct and is listed correctly in the manual at 20.7 and 25.3 lbs shipped.

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR1600_OM_ENG.WEB_ 11_04.pdf

Be careful here...
The HK website is loaded with errors especially in the category of specificifications. About a year ago, HK went through a complete changeover of their marketing/product development team as they moved their R&D center to Shenzen, China. And unfortunately many of the errors were never corrected on their website, and in their printed material of operation manuals and product brochures.


Just my $0.02....

 

[anamorphic96]

Nice photos. I thought the 708 had a fan as well.

Your guess on the weights is probably accurate for the 1600 and 2600. However the 354 from last year did not weigh anything close to 44lbs.

I haven't seen a manufacture screw up something like this for a very long time, if ever.

 

[M Code]

Something still isn't right. Take a look at the manual for the 2600. It says the weight is 44lbs and power consumption 1,405W That can't be right for a receiver at this price point. So it begs the question, is the website or manual correct for their 2010 receivers?

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR_2600_Owners_Manual_Eng.pdf

I was curious so I pulled a 1600 out of stock and put it on our scale. It weighs 23.75 LBs...
Did the same for a 2600, it weighs 29.25 LBs.
I have no idea where the 44 LBs came from..

Hope that helps..

Just my $0.02...

 

[rnatalli]

I might have to give the newer HK's another look. My experience with the x54 models was just awful, but it seems they may have fixed most of the glitches. I also see that the 2600 and up includes Dolby Volume Leveler which is like Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dolby Volume Modeler which is like Audyssey Dynamic EQ. I'd be curious how it compares as those Audyssey features were always a big selling point for me. Might have to order a 2600 and do a head-to-head

 

[anamorphic96]

The 2600 can also be had for 445 at jr.com while the 1600 can be had for 299.00.