Denon AVC-A1H, special request for Gene to review and bench test this new beast!

[lovinthehd]

I mean the opposite of height/ceiling speakers.

What opposite in that format? Be more specific....

 

[Baff]

It is interesting you bring that up. There is no general acceptance of floor speakers. However in listening studies at the university of Sheffield UK, they found that front floor speakers were more important than height or ceiling speakers in creating a realistic sound field. The proviso was that the mic arrangement had to allow for that. In their studies they were using a modified Decca tree arrangement and it had to include modification to pick up floor reflections at the front of the sound field.

Jim's point remains relevant however. Whist all this is very interesting, does it really advance good audio in the home? Jim is probably right, that it has the reverse effect. I think percentage wise, there are now less homes with good audio, than there were back in the sixties, seventies and eighties. Part of that is competition for funds, from Internet and computer requirements. You can't escape the fact that 15 speakers and their powering is much more costly than two that was the norm in previous generations.

I belong to the mono era and remember the introduction of stereo. The pundits thought that social resistance going from one speaker to two would be enormous. They were wrong. Stereo spread like wild fire in homes. The audio in the home, quickly become known as the "stereo". Acceptance of any multichannel audio, except sound bars has been at a snails pace compared to going from mono to stereo.

While TV speakers are pretty bad, they are far superior to what they used to be. Also the hassle of running wiring around and finding good places to sit or mount them is a lot of work. If there were reasonably priced wireless speaker sets that worked well, I am sure more people would buy them. I am not convinced that there was ever a significant percentage of people with good tv audio. Decent stereos for music? Sure. Back in the 70s/80s, I barely knew anyone with a tv plugged into their stereo system.

These days, most kids watch video on their phones or laptops. At best they will have some decent headphones.

 

[Baff]

What opposite in that format? Be more specific....

I've said it a bunch of ways, I will try some more.

Bottom speakers=
In-floor speakers
Speakers close to the floor
Speakers below you facing upwards toward you
Speakers that aren't above you or at ear level
Normal speakers, not sub-woofers

 

[lovinthehd]

I've said it a bunch of ways, I will try some more.

Bottom speakers=
In-floor speakers
Speakers close to the floor
Speakers below you facing upwards toward you
Speakers that aren't above you or at ear level
Normal speakers, not sub-woofers

Okay, got it Not that it makes any sense.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

9x11.

Well most “media rooms” I’ve seen are about 13’ x 15’. So yeah how are people putting 15 speakers in there, much less 26 speakers.

My room is 26’ x 22’ x 14’ ceiling and I have 9 speakers in my HT room.

 

[Baff]

It is interesting you bring that up. There is no general acceptance of floor speakers. However in listening studies at the university of Sheffield UK, they found that front floor speakers were more important than height or ceiling speakers in creating a realistic sound field. The proviso was that the mic arrangement had to allow for that. In their studies they were using a modified Decca tree arrangement and it had to include modification to pick up floor reflections at the front of the sound field.

Interesting, though not surprising to me since I have seen floor speakers in a few amusement parks used to decent effect.

Jim's point remains relevant however.

I don't see it as being at all relevant to my original post.

Whist all this is very interesting, does it really advance good audio in the home?

I never suggested it was.

Sorry, but the last 20 or so posts in this thread have had almost nothing to do with my original post, other than defining the work "bottom" and the Sheffield study.

 

[Baff]

Well most “media rooms” I’ve seen are about 13’ x 15’. So yeah how are people putting 15 speakers in there, much less 26 speakers.

My room is 26’ x 22’ x 14’ ceiling and I have 9 speakers in my HT room.

My room is 17' x 16' x 8' and my 13 speakers are pretty distinct.

I really don't think 26 speakers is practical (for several reasons). It certainly would never work in my room. At most, I could get 16 speakers to work in my room (not counting subs). I am simply saying it is about the most speakers that would make any sense in some perfect scenario, which is what I understood the question to be.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What opposite in that format? Be more specific....

Pretty sure dtsx supports floor speakers. I can try and dig that up. Maybe.

While TV speakers are pretty bad, they are far superior to what they used to be.

Have to disagree. Tv speakers have never been worse!!! Any decent crt or rear projector had much larger/better speakers/cabinets than the tiny little headphone driver placed in modern flat panels. It’s a joke. You’re wrong.

These days, most kids watch video on their phones or laptops. At best they will have some decent headphones.unfortunately this is true.

 

[Baff]

Pretty sure dtsx supports floor speakers. I can try and dig that up. Maybe.

Please do. I haven't looked close at the specs in a few years.

Have to disagree. Tv speakers have never been worse!!! Any decent crt or rear projector had much larger/better speakers/cabinets than the tiny little headphone driver placed in modern flat panels. It’s a joke. You’re wrong.

Heh, I could certainly be wrong about that. It has been 15 years since I last heard them. I really don't listen to new tv speakers either.

 

[gene]

I just completed my Marantz Amp 10 bench test and its chock full of stuff you won't find anywhere else. It's under peer and I hope to have it posted by early next week with a Youtube video to follow.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't mean that kind of bottom. I mean speakers supplying sound from below. Yes, I understand that is pointless with the 2.5 dimensional sound that exists now. My post is about theoretical, rather than practical though. I don't ever expect to have or need 26 speakers. Outside of an amusement park or a lab, I would be surprised if any such thing ever exists.


I don't disagree with that. "Lucky" for me too that my wife is also understanding. With a little less luck, I would have a lot more money in the bank.

That would be a "Bass Shaker" or "Tactile Transducer" - a type of speaker which is fitted to your couch, and provide the vibration via the furniture.... the sound from the bottom

 

[PENG]

I just completed my Marantz Amp 10 bench test and its chock full of stuff you won't find anywhere else. It's under peer and I hope to have it posted by early next week with a Youtube video to follow.

Thank you Gene, it must have taken a lot of time to test such an amp. Is Matthew still going to review/measure the Denon A1H, or Denon wouldn't send one to AH? I guess it would be understandable if Masimo didn't want to send out $20K worth of gear (for all 3 pieces) for you to bench test.

 

[MrBoat]

It is interesting you bring that up. There is no general acceptance of floor speakers. However in listening studies at the university of Sheffield UK, they found that front floor speakers were more important than height or ceiling speakers in creating a realistic sound field. The proviso was that the mic arrangement had to allow for that. In their studies they were using a modified Decca tree arrangement and it had to include modification to pick up floor reflections at the front of the sound field.

Jim's point remains relevant however. Whist all this is very interesting, does it really advance good audio in the home? Jim is probably right, that it has the reverse effect. I think percentage wise, there are now less homes with good audio, than there were back in the sixties, seventies and eighties. Part of that is competition for funds, from Internet and computer requirements. You can't escape the fact that 15 speakers and their powering is much more costly than two that was the norm in previous generations.

I belong to the mono era and remember the introduction of stereo. The pundits thought that social resistance going from one speaker to two would be enormous. They were wrong. Stereo spread like wild fire in homes. The audio in the home, quickly become known as the "stereo". Acceptance of any multichannel audio, except sound bars has been at a snails pace compared to going from mono to stereo.

What many people tend to discount about stage-forward stereo now is, that many of us learned how, what and where to implement in which to hear what studio techs intended, from the studio techs themselves. It's definitely how I got hooked on near field, 2-channel listening. I've certainly had enough opportunity, influence and exposure in which to change it up, but never have been missing anything from what I use in which to improve upon the methods.

What has improved the most for me is, speakers are better and more predictable now. After nearly 50 years of mastering 2-channel, the biggest mysteries about speakers have been resolved with measurements. But up until then, the uncomplicated nature of 2-channel with getting the most out of the least, ended up teaching us the most about rooms, bass, EQ, headroom, and scale with regard to 'life-sized' sound.

Granted, music is the main focus of my system, which tends to disclude me from much of the concerns or benefits (or opinions) of complete surround sound. OTOH, I don't understand the benefit of hearing something over my shoulder or behind me without being able to look back and see it. In other words, there should also be surround video as well. Otherwise, a pair of speakers with a good center image and the ability to realistically and seamlessly pan sound from one side to the other tends to be adequate with a single forward screen and still comes across as 3D.

 

[PENG]

Marantz is sending me the AV10 and AMP10 next week so I will be bench testing those. I may request an A1H sent to Matthew Poes which he can bench test for us and also test out the bass routing stuff they offer. Anthem wants us to bench test the AVM90. So many products, so little time. I wish I had someone local that could do this for me with my AP.

Hey Gene, I understood Anthem wanted you to bench test the AVM 90 but obvious you have too little time to cover all ground. Just heads up, your friend on on ASR has just done it for you:

(1) Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Obviously for the great results (about the same as the AV10 in most tests), he put it on his recommended list.

It looks like a tough choice between the though, but AV10 has Dirac Live and Audyssey, costs more with the licenses, but imo it is worth it. ARC Genesis is okay but, can't wait to see your review complete with measurements (REW plots), are you still planning on doing a full review on ARC G soon?

 

[mtbdudex]

@gene
Hi - some cliff notes:
I bought my Denon A1H Nov-2024, I'm truly happy with it, replace a 8500H I had since Feb-2-2018.

I started to looking into the flaship warranty, it appears as 3 years not 5.
The green paper in my box, the back-n-forth with Denon Customer support.
However other say it's 5 years still.

I see your first page showed it as 5 years, do you have some good evidence of that?
Press release, etc.
Obviously I desire a 5 year not a 3 year on the A1H flagship.
My Denon support ticket is still open.

Pictures of the communications

then from page 1 the article that lead me to this thread for commenting

Denon’s 15.4CH AVR-A1H: Return of the Super AV Receiver?

The new Denon 15.4CH AVR-A1H ($6,499) is among its first to incorporate Dirac Live and 4 independent subwoofer outputs. The 70lb A1H brings flagship status back to the brand with sheer power and build.

www.audioholics.com

The green paper in my A1H box

regards,
Mike Rosinski

 

[PENG]

@gene
Hi - some cliff notes:
I bought my Denon A1H Nov-2024, I'm truly happy with it, replace a 8500H I had since Feb-2-2018.

I started to looking into the flaship warranty, it appears as 3 years not 5.
The green paper in my box, the back-n-forth with Denon Customer support.
However other say it's 5 years still.

I see your first page showed it as 5 years, do you have some good evidence of that?
Press release, etc.
Obviously I desire a 5 year not a 3 year on the A1H flagship.
My Denon support ticket is still open.

Pictures of the communications
View attachment 72280

View attachment 72281

View attachment 72282

View attachment 72283


then from page 1 the article that lead me to this thread for commenting

Denon’s 15.4CH AVR-A1H: Return of the Super AV Receiver?

The new Denon 15.4CH AVR-A1H ($6,499) is among its first to incorporate Dirac Live and 4 independent subwoofer outputs. The 70lb A1H brings flagship status back to the brand with sheer power and build.

www.audioholics.com

View attachment 72284

The green paper in my A1H box
View attachment 72285

regards,
Mike Rosinski

A quick search found that Denon's warranty varies with location.

For example, someone's post on AVSF:
The *OFFICIAL* 2023 Denon AVR / AVC - A1H 15.4ch Flagship AVR Owners Thread | Page 46 | AVS Forum
support-de.denon.com/app/extended_warranty

It may be the same for Marantz, for example, in some EU countries, the Marantz equivalent models tend to cost $200-$300 between D and M's equivalents but in NA, the differences are $700-$1,000.

The good thing is, you have an AVR that has the same specs as the more expensive AV10 and it comes with very power build in amplifiers, comparable to the RZ70 but 15 channels of them.

It also measured practically the same as the more expensive AV10 and the AVM90. It is a great value even without the longer warranty. I would suggest you use it with a near silent 12 V Noctua fan, the quietest one you can get because the A1H is going to silent in probably most rooms. You don't really near it if the unit runs just warm to the touch but I do believe a fan that is on full time will extend its trouble free life.

 

[mtbdudex]

A quick search found that Denon's warranty varies with location.

For example, someone's post on AVSF:
The *OFFICIAL* 2023 Denon AVR / AVC - A1H 15.4ch Flagship AVR Owners Thread | Page 46 | AVS Forum
support-de.denon.com/app/extended_warranty

It may be the same for Marantz, for example, in some EU countries, the Marantz equivalent models tend to cost $200-$300 between D and M's equivalents but in NA, the differences are $700-$1,000.

The good thing is, you have an AVR that has the same specs as the more expensive AV10 and it comes with very power build in amplifiers, comparable to the RZ70 but 15 channels of them.

It also measured practically the same as the more expensive AV10 and the AVM90. It is a great value even without the longer warranty. I would suggest you use it with a near silent 12 V Noctua fan, the quietest one you can get because the A1H is going to silent in probably most rooms. You don't really near it if the unit runs just warm to the touch but I do believe a fan that is on full time will extend its trouble free life.

Appreciate your reply.

I'm looking at this holistically, the 30,000 foot viewpoint, simply this:

"Does the Denon Flagship have (deserve) a 5 year warranty?"

Yes or No

I feel yes and explained why in my inquires to Denon support as I asked/challenged them on it
Then I saw the article By Jacob Green Contributors: Matthew Poes , Gene DellaSala
and posted here, as people say Audioholics has an inside track with Denon.

Jason, Matthew, Gene ... ?

btw - here is install day Dec-10-2024. There's a big vent at top of that rack, with a AC Infinity CLOUDLINE PRO T4, Quiet 4” Inline Duct Fan sucking air out, vented into the next door rec room above it's suspended ceiling - the motor is in that room so actually no noise at all in the HT. No heat issues.

 

[PENG]

Yes or No

I feel yes and explained why in my inquires to Denon support as I asked/challenged them on it
Then I saw the article By Jacob Green Contributors: Matthew Poes , Gene DellaSala
and posted here, as people say Audioholics has an inside track with Denon.

Jason, Matthew, Gene ... ?

I understand you "feel yes" but the bottom line is you have to go with what is said on the warranty card, and you already got a response from Denon support who confirmed what was on the warranty card.

There might be a remote chance that if you register the product, the warranty would go up to 5 years but if you don't have any fine print on the documents that states that then you might want to ask Diana (likely AI person) to refer your inquiry to their level two support, or request a phone number to contact level 2 directly.

As to Gene's direct line, my guess is, depending on the subject matter, it only goes so far, but hopefully he would respond..

 

[-Jim-]

I sympathize with @mtbdudex but reality is a Deal is a Deal, and we all need to read and understand "the fine print" before consummating the deal. In the corporate world (having lived there in a past life) Warranties are little more than a marketing cost, that's allowed for each year on the Balance Sheet. Different countries have different legal requirements as well, so you need to dig down so see what's really applicable to you in your situation.

I've been a fan of Denon for about a decade as my main receivers are both from them. One of them (a Denon AVR-S900W) did need warranty repair immediately after I bought it in 2016, but it's worked like trooper since. (I'm having a bit of an issue with Zone 2 right channel level to be completely honest, but I've been too lazy to do a system reset /recalibration in the Man Cave / Junk Room..) My Denon AVR-X4400H has worked flawlessly since new in 2019. The reason for the above was to show that typically, if not abused, Denon AVRs will run for the 5 years you are concerned about, especially after it makes it through the 3 years of warranty it comes with. It's been my experience that electronics, if they are going to fail to a manufacturing defect, will do so in the first year, and then will run well until they age out. I've had lots of receivers from Sony, Denon, Marantz, etc., and not once have i retired /recycled them due to a failure. (I still have 2 Sony AVRs working long after their warranties have expired.)

I too would recommend an extra USB cooling fan or two. I did that on my AVR-X4400H since new just for piece of mind.

Then if I were you, I'd enjoy the crap out of the AVR-A1H and drive it as hard as you like (within reason).

I hope you get a decade of service from your new A1H.

Enjoy the Music!

 

[mtbdudex]

There seems to be concern on lack of ventilation , trust me I've got great ventilation.
My custom AV rack is actually huge, 24" wide x 28" deep, with double doors (sealed) for easy access to rear.
Keeping things properly vented was never an issue, nor the reason why I inquired on the 5 year warranty.

I posted a inline duct fan is there .. here it is.
FWIW this was put in to keep all the "hot air" from AVR & XBOX X from warming up the HT, it works perfect.

Hanging above rec room suspended ceiling.
I did the whole basement myself, everything, 2005-2008.
Office room, full bath, bedroom, rec room, HT, kitchenette, about 1200 sq ft.
Wall framing, plumbing, elect, true concrete shower base correctly sloped, tile in bathroom , cork floor office, etc.

Thats a huge hole, covered by 8" x 11" grille.

ductwork sucking air from AV rack

view of backside AV rack