Denon AVC-A1H, special request for Gene to review and bench test this new beast!

[PENG]

With a well-trained German Shepherd you can order it around while that pesky receiver will just ignore you.

So the GSD listens to you, but you listen to the A1H? Quite the opposite!

 

[Epsonfan]

I just ordered a German Shepherd from Amazon, it comes in a 70 pound box.

 

[Epsonfan]

Where's the review folks

 

[Tanquen]

It's just too expensive, especially with no dirac license. Just feels like a cash grab with no announcement of the x6800h. It's cool it weighs a ton and all, but I seriously doubt there's any audible difference. So unless you need that many amps and you really just want a single box. The newest pioneer elite doesn't have all the same features but at least it's realistically priced and it comes with a base license.

 

[dlaloum]

It's just too expensive, especially with no dirac license. Just feels like a cash grab with no announcement of the x6800h. It's cool it weighs a ton and all, but I seriously doubt there's any audible difference. So unless you need that many amps and you really just want a single box. The newest pioneer elite doesn't have all the same features but at least it's realistically priced and it comes with a base license.

If you are already paying US$9000 ... an extra 10% is neither here nor there...

If you are paying US$1700 then an additional $800... or 47% is a BIG DEAL.

I think buyers of the X3800 will think twice (or more!) about forking out the extra for DLBC and Dirac Live is a step up from Audyssey IMO, but is it worth an extra $350? (20%)

Let's see what happens when Onkyo releases its RZ90/R1.4/LX905... which should be a direct competitor...

 

[broncogr]

@gene
So that you guys know, there is an issue with delays in the whole D&M Dirac upgradable range.

I have been messing with Dirac the last few days.
I believe I have discovered a quite serious bug that also existed for the Onkyo RZ50 before it was fixed by a firmware update.
I checked the speaker distances after a Dirac calibration

Notice how they nearly all are at 20 ms ?
Then I read the troubleshooting FAQ for Dirac Live and stumbled upon
Troubleshooting: By Firmware raise the 20ms delay limit on Onkyo - Dirac Live Support - Confluence

I checked the graph for impulse response on the Dirac Live app, selecting all speakers

So, Denon, as Onkyo previously, has set the max for speaker Delay (Distance) to 20ms....
When Dirac time aligns the speakers, it asks for a larger than 20ms delay to be used.
The AVR cant set a larger delay than 20ms so sets it at 20ms which makes the distance calibration WRONG.

I have opened a ticket at the Dirac helpdesk, so hopefully they can ask Denon to raise the limit of the delay and fix the issue.
It seems logical that since the issue existed with Onkyo, Dirac upon the implementation of Dirac Live for D&M receivers, should have checked that the same issue didn't exist.
Yet Dirac didn't !!
Lets hope this gets solved in a future firmware update

 

[broncogr]

The issue with the delays (distances) on Denon and Marantz should have been caught early on.
The way Dirac works with delays is that it sets the speaker with the highest delay, usually a subwoofer, at 0 then delays all other speakers to sync with it.
If you have a wireless adapter on a sub, the immediate delay is 15-25ms depending on the brand without taking into account physical distance and further DSP.
So, as can be easily derived, as Denon and Marantz, at the time, only offer a maximum delay of 20ms for a Dirac calibration, ALL speakers will be misaligned in the case that a wireless adapter is used for a sub or for any other speaker.
If this isn't fixed, Dirac will never be able to optiimize distances between speakers and is therefore unusable, as distances are wrong on the AVR

 

[PENG]

The issue with the delays (distances) on Denon and Marantz should have been caught early on.
The way Dirac works with delays is that it sets the speaker with the highest delay, usually a subwoofer, at 0 then delays all other speakers to sync with it.
If you have a wireless adapter on a sub, the immediate delay is 15-25ms depending on the brand without taking into account physical distance and further DSP.
So, as can be easily derived, as Denon and Marantz, at the time, only offer a maximum delay of 20ms for a Dirac calibration, ALL speakers will be misaligned in the case that a wireless adapter is used for a sub or for any other speaker.
If this isn't fixed, Dirac will never be able to optiimize distances between speakers and is therefore unusable, as distances are wrong on the AVR

Dirac, like Audyssey, measures delays and the app (if used) or the AVR (if the app is not used) would calculate the distance for display only. Has Denon actually confirmed using the displayed distance for creation of the filters?

To me, it makes more sense for Dirac or Audyssey to use the actual measured delays to design the filters and not the distance, or delays displayed on screen.

 

[broncogr]

This remains to be seen as neither Dirac nor Denon have replied yet to my tickets.

In the case of Onkyo though, that exhibited the exact same bug, what was displayed was what was used.

I believe it is the same exact bug with the D&M range

 

[broncogr]

@PENG
Please read this again if you haven't yet done so

Troubleshooting: By Firmware raise the 20ms delay limit on Onkyo - Dirac Live Support - Confluence

 

[PENG]

This remains to be seen as neither Dirac nor Denon have replied yet to my tickets.

In the case of Onkyo though, that exhibited the exact same bug, what was displayed was what was used.

I believe it is the same exact bug with the D&M range

I think it is the same bug too. Just not sure if this bug affects only the displayed value or the actual filter creation as well. Only Denon, or Manantz knows the right answer.

How does it sound to you so far? Dirac vs Audyssey vs no RC, i.e. direct mode?

 

[broncogr]

I think it is the same bug too. Just not sure if this bug affects only the displayed value or the actual filter creation as well. Only Denon, or Manantz knows the right answer.

How does it sound to you so far? Dirac vs Audyssey vs no RC, i.e. direct mode?

Audyssey creates a bubble of sound for me.
My Dirac calibration doesn't although it sounds cleaner, especially for music.

 

[highfigh]

AVRs are yesterdays news. Time to move on to AVPs and active speakers. The sooner AVRs are gone, the better off everyone will be.

Well, aside from people who don't have a big budget and they make up for more of the market than the high end.

 

[broncogr]

Dirac, like Audyssey, measures delays and the app (if used) or the AVR (if the app is not used) would calculate the distance for display only. Has Denon actually confirmed using the displayed distance for creation of the filters?

To me, it makes more sense for Dirac or Audyssey to use the actual measured delays to design the filters and not the distance, or delays displayed on screen.

I think it is the same bug too. Just not sure if this bug affects only the displayed value or the actual filter creation as well. Only Denon, or Manantz knows the right answer.

How does it sound to you so far? Dirac vs Audyssey vs no RC, i.e. direct mode?

The issue is now confirmed from Dirac in tickets from users in the AVS forum.

The "OFFICIAL" (!!!-READ THE 1st PAGE-!!!)...

www.avsforum.com

The "OFFICIAL" (!!!-READ THE 1st PAGE-!!!)...

www.avsforum.com

As stated "We have reproduced the issue and are working with Marantz to fix it as soon as possible. "

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, aside from people who don't have a big budget and they make up for more of the market than the high end.

That’s what we’ve been trying to tell him over and over again.

He expects the 90% of the population (who don’t have the budget) to get rid of all their AVRs and spend $3K+ on AVP + another $3K+ on amps.

 

[multisport4me]

I think it is the same bug too. Just not sure if this bug affects only the displayed value or the actual filter creation as well. Only Denon, or Manantz knows the right answer.

How does it sound to you so far? Dirac vs Audyssey vs no RC, i.e. direct mode?

I'm thinking it may be display only. I changed the number of subs while on Speaker Preset 2 (Dirac) and when I did, the AV10 of course grayed out Dirac Live as a selectable option. However, when I checked the levels and distances they were there. The distances were displayed in feet but were still populated.

Now what I don't know is whether the deleted Dirac cal merely copied what was in speaker preset 1 from Audyssey. Whats the math again? feet/1.3 to convert feet to ms?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm thinking it may be display only. I changed the number of subs while on Speaker Preset 2 (Dirac) and when I did, the AV10 of course grayed out Dirac Live as a selectable option. However, when I checked the levels and distances they were there. The distances were displayed in feet but were still populated.

Now what I don't know is whether the deleted Dirac cal merely copied what was in speaker preset 1 from Audyssey. Whats the math again? feet/1.3 to convert feet to ms?

1.3? 1100 ft/sec is roughly speed of sound....

 

[multisport4me]

Isn't it 1.3ms per foot? Honestly, I don't know - that is why I'm asking.

 

[lovinthehd]

Isn't it 1.3ms per foot? Honestly, I don't know - that is why I'm asking.

it varies a bit depending on temperature and medium, but 1100 ft per sec should be close enough.

 

[multisport4me]

I see that. looks like 1.13 feet per millisecond but 1100 ft/per second still works. If my speaker distance is set to 25 feet that should mean Dirac (which uses milliseconds) will be roughly be 23ms.