Denon and Yamaha

[PENG]

Fixed it for you.

Fix perfect! He kept telling us he offered his opinions, yet kept stating such "opinions" as though they were "facts", otherwise all good posts, in my opinion..

 

[3db]

You can often accomplish the same thing by asking your wife who knows nothing about audio brands or cost, and doesn't care, "Honey, which one do you think sounds better?".

And the response would be.. "I don't know...wait....no..... I don't care...its not important to me."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...otherwise all good posts, in my opinion..

Is that a FACT?

 

[Dan Madden]

What your all saying is that when I switched from Yamaha to Rotel, I 'hoped' or 'expected' an improvement in sound and therefore heard one because I WANTED TO??

Nothing can be further from the truth. I had that Yamaha for many years and listened to thousands of hours of music and movies on it. When I switched it out for the Rotel, the difference in sound and performance was immediate to me. In some respects, it felt like I was listening to my music in a new way again for the first time. I like to think as a person that sits down and listens to music critically all the time that I would be able to hear that difference if it was there.

I did and still do when I listen to my Rotel.

 

[herbu]

And the response would be.. "I don't know...wait....no..... I don't care...its not important to me."

Or... "They sound the same".

 

[herbu]

What your all saying is that when I switched from Yamaha to Rotel, I 'hoped' or 'expected' an improvement in sound and therefore heard one because I WANTED TO??

We're saying that CAN happen.
We're also saying what YOU hear may not represent what everybody hears.
And that's a fact.

 

[PENG]

We're saying that CAN happen.
We're also saying what YOU hear may not represent what everybody hears.
And that's a fact.

It COULD also happen that:

1) The Yamaha might have some issues, due to normal age/usage related deterioration, and/or some minor defects due to whatever reasons.

2) Not compared in pure direct (he can easily clarify that).

3) Something else we don't know about.

There could in fact be real audible difference between the two, but it does not automatically imply there will always be such difference between comparable Yamaha and Rotel products, i.e. it could just be an individual and isolated case.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What your all saying is that when I switched from Yamaha to Rotel, I 'hoped' or 'expected' an improvement in sound and therefore heard one because I WANTED TO??

Nothing can be further from the truth. I had that Yamaha for many years and listened to thousands of hours of music and movies on it. When I switched it out for the Rotel, the difference in sound and performance was immediate to me. In some respects, it felt like I was listening to my music in a new way again for the first time. I like to think as a person that sits down and listens to music critically all the time that I would be able to hear that difference if it was there.

I did and still do when I listen to my Rotel.

So what are YOU saying ?

That you can hear something we can't ?

That you know something we don't ?

 

[lovinthehd]

What your all saying is that when I switched from Yamaha to Rotel, I 'hoped' or 'expected' an improvement in sound and therefore heard one because I WANTED TO??

Nothing can be further from the truth. I had that Yamaha for many years and listened to thousands of hours of music and movies on it. When I switched it out for the Rotel, the difference in sound and performance was immediate to me. In some respects, it felt like I was listening to my music in a new way again for the first time. I like to think as a person that sits down and listens to music critically all the time that I would be able to hear that difference if it was there.

I did and still do when I listen to my Rotel.

That's great but it wasn't exactly an A/B comparison and you had a new toy to play with. I've switched in and out many avrs and amps in many rooms with many speakers and my take away is it matters little.

So do you feel silly having listened to the Yamaha "crap" for so many years? I don't butt clench when listening to music, I rather try and enjoy the music and not worry about something mundane like amplification....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1) The Yamaha might have some issues, due to normal age/usage related deterioration, and/or some minor defects due to whatever reasons.

2) Not compared in pure direct (he can easily clarify that).

3) Volume Level wasn't matched (if it were side-by-side comparison, not from memory alone).

4) Different recordings being listened to. We know how important the actual recordings are.

5) Placebo effect/ human memory not reliable.

 

[PENG]

Quite simply because they DO offer more performance.....especially on the 'amp' side of things.

I'll tell you about my experience............

For years I had high end Yamaha AVR's and was sold on them. Then, I had some money to blow on an upgrade and heard that Rotel amps were better. I also wanted DD and DTS decoding as well and my last Yammie was pro-logic only (High end though...cost me $1000 bucks). That was in the mid 90's though.

My Rotel cost twice what my Yamaha cost ($2k) and that was a big chunk of change for me but I bought it anyway. I was always under the impression that an amp was an amp and that it simply amplified a source. Watts were watts and that was it. Boy, was I wrong!!

From the moment I wired my Rotel up.......and it was rated at 75 watts/ch compared to my old Yamaha which was 100 watts/ch, the difference was immediate and striking!! The sound was immediate and forward....punchy.....piles of detail..... and the biggest difference was the dynamic 'headroom'. When a blast of power was needed (ie......cymbal crash or drum roll for music.......explosion for movies) it just delivered the power effortlessly. When I ask my Rotel to go from 2 channel stereo to 5ch stereo it says......"Sure no problem" and just does it effortlessly with no loss of volume or power delivery.

Trust me when I say that Rotel is a step up.........

I am curious to know which "high end" Yamaha AVRs are rated only 100WPC. Also worth noting, that the older Yamaha AVRs, even mid range ones bench tested by Gene here at AH and other labs, were found to be capable of excellent dynamic power that outperformed the likes of NAD, Anthem and other relatively more expensive brands.

It is true that they typically didn't get good ACD results on the bench, probably because of their more aggressive protective circuit, but it is a widely accepted "facts" that for real world material 2 channel outputs are more critical, unless one listens to the weird 5/7 ch stereo mode.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for making the list more complete.

 

[Dan Madden]

I listen to all my CD's pretty much at the same volume level so the difference in volume (Capabilities) of the Rotel vs the Yamaha is irrelevant. How they perform at a given listening level and what the amp reveals at that level IS relevent! But listening to CD's that I had listened to a thousand times before with the Yamaha via The Rotel delivered a rather striking difference. One that I could not ignore. It was there.......plain a simple.

The gentleman at the beginning of this thread seemed to be looking for a better sounding AVR and all I did was point him to Rotel because through my experience, I think they are a step up from Yamaha and Denon. He can choose to try Rotel or not, that's his choice.

 

[Goliath]

I listen to all my CD's pretty much at the same volume level so the difference in volume (Capabilities) of the Rotel vs the Yamaha is irrelevant.

Pretty much at the same volume is code for "I didn't level-match". You can't level-match by ear. That's like cutting wood by eye.

Please be aware that a small volume mismatch (1-2 dB) can have a profound effect on your perception of sound quality.

 

[herbu]

through my experience... I think

That's a lot better than, "With Rotel you will get an immediate increase in performance".

 

[everettT]

The gentleman at the beginning of this thread seemed to be looking for a better sounding AVR and all I did was point him to Rotel because through my experience, I think they are a step up from Yamaha and Denon. He can choose to try Rotel or not, that's his choice.

Unless I'm confused AVRs amplify a signal and the speaker plays the sound. I've never heard an AVR. Some older tubes would start to roll off the top end causing the speakers to sound warmer, not really true today, but if the amp section operates full range and isn't clipping, the sound from the speakers shouldn't be colored until dsp or eq is applied

 

[3db]

Unless I'm confused AVRs amplify a signal and the speaker plays the sound. I've never heard an AVR. Some older tubes would start to roll off the top end causing the speakers to sound warmer, not really true today, but if the amp section operates full range and isn't clipping, the sound from the speakers shouldn't be colored until dsp or eq is applied

That's the difference between conducting a sighted test based on auditory memory (which is only accurate for at most a couple of minutes) and a blind listening test. I have reached the same conclusion as you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Pretty much at the same volume is code for "I didn't level-match". You can't level-match by ear. That's like cutting wood by eye.

Please be aware that a small volume mismatch (1-2 dB) can have a profound effect on your perception of sound quality.

That's how I cut wood.

Bad carpenter.

But hey, in my vast carpentry experience, I get great results. Bias is just simply impossible. Unequivocally irrelevant.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's the difference between conducting a sighted test based on auditory memory (which is only accurate for at most a couple of minutes) and a blind listening test. I have reached the same conclusion as you.

We simply don't know what we are talking about.

Bias is unequivocally impossible. No such thing.

Man, we must drive all those "all-amps-sound-significantly-different" and all those "no-level-matching-or-blind-testing-is-necessary" people CRAZY.