Denon 5805- NOT a powerhouse receiver!

[mtrycrafts]

Well, if that is the claimed power rating, yes, you should be upset. But, are you reading the claims incorrectly??? Maybe the real claim is that each channel is capable of 170 watts???

 

[MACCA350]

No manafacture's state Wattage with 5 or 7channels running, its either 1 or 2channels(as in Denon's case). also look at the distortion factors at that wattage.

Pioneer state in their specs the 170W VSX-2014iG receiver only outputs 130W and thats at 1%THD see the link
http://www.pioneeraus.com.au/home_entertainment/receivers/vsx2014ig/index.html#anch_0 their $8000 one is probably measured the same way

Compare that to denons 170W (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05 % THD)

As mtrycrafts found denons figures are in the ballpark

The single channel is 205 watts!!!
Stereo is 185 watts a clipping!!!
What are you looking for?

cheers

 

[PENG]

Another point, the list price of the AVR7300 is much higher than 1,400. So the difference is not 4,600.

 

[Brian JB]

AC Line Amperage Requirement

Gene
Once again, your input to test & inform the audioholic community is impressive. Thanks. Can you tell us if your testing of the 5805 was conducted with a 20 amp AC line? The reason I ask is that looking on Denon's web site, specifically 5805's tech note/white paper on page 4., the AC line amperage requirement is 20 Amp. Is this a must?
Thanks again.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Another point, the list price of the AVR7300 is much higher than 1,400. So the difference is not 4,600.

Peng, good point. Retail $2399. Guess what. JR has dropped the price of the AVR7300 today to $1299 with free shipping. Wow.
www.jr.com/OMBasketDetail.process?RestartFlow=t&OMProductId=3991827&PEEK=BOO&AddToBasket.x=53&AddToBasket.y=9

The best I could find the Denon online is $4644 plus $146 s/h for a total of $4790 at Yahoo shopping. No doubt the price will come down as the year progresses, but knowing Denon - not that much. You most definitely want to buy this unit from a certified Denon retailer.

Retail difference: $3601. Acutal difference: $3491. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

No manafacture's state Wattage with 5 or 7channels running, its either 1 or 2channels(as in Denon's case). also look at the distortion factors at that wattage.

Pioneer state in their specs the 170W VSX-2014iG receiver only outputs 130W and thats at 1%THD see the link
http://www.pioneeraus.com.au/home_entertainment/receivers/vsx2014ig/index.html#anch_0 their $8000 one is probably measured the same way

Compare that to denons 170W (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05 % THD)

As mtrycrafts found denons figures are in the ballpark


cheers

Why hasn't anyone dragged Yamaha's offering here? No Yamaha fans? The RX-Z9 outshines both the Denon and HK in one channel operating power:

Harman Kardon AVR7300 202x1
Denon 5805 205x1
Yamaha RX-Z9 211x1

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/yamaharx-z9inthelab.pdf

Not bad for under $3100 ($4499 retail). http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Yamaha RX-Z9 Receiver:1991581410;_ylt=AkFLuRyahG_o6TRkJL8eyGcbFt0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBic2hxMGNhBGx0AzQEc2VjA3Ny?clink=dmps/rx-z9/ctx=mid:6,pid:1991581410,pdid:6,pos:1,spc:14489115,date:20050422,srch:kw,x:

 

[PENG]

BuckeyeFan 1, you're closed enough anyway. You're right about Denon generally does not offer as much discount as H.K., except that here in Canada, even big box stores such as the Futureshop, sell them at or near the list prices.

FYI, your Denon may be better than you think, at least in terms of SQ. I tried pairing mine with my Adcom and Bryston for 2 Ch music listening, the difference was subtle. Subjectively it sounded better with the amps but I am not confident that I can tell the difference in a double blind test. I almost bought a AVR7200, but now I am glad I ended up with the Denon. I think the 3805 may have the lowest distortion and noise numbers among similarly priced receivers.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Peng, I did the exact same thing. Was about to buy the AVR7200 over the Denon, then HK came out with the AVR7300 which made the 7200 look like a dinosaur. That made the decision to go with the Denon much easier, and I've never been sorry about the Denon purchase. The AVR7300 was no where near where it is today in price, and my choice may be different today based on the video upconversion and power offered by the HK. Yet it's still $564 more than what I got my Denon 3805 for. Tough call.

 

[gene]

Can you tell us if your testing of the 5805 was conducted with a 20 amp AC line?

Yes I do use dedicated 20A circuits for my reference system. In fact, I had the 5805 plugged into that line with nothing else, not even my test equipment when running my bench tests.

Figure on the fact that running 4CH at around 170wpc consumes over 1700watts of power, over 14A you can see why the line was sagging during my tests and it got even worse when I ran 5 channels.

The RX-Z9 outshines both the Denon and HK in one channel operating power:

Actually it does not. The Z9 delivers about 250wpc unclipped into 2ch compared to the Denon 5805 340wpc under the same test conditions for 4ohm loads and about 155wpc compared to the 5805's 170wpc 2CH driven into 8 ohm loads. We don't test amps into clipping since they are pretty much useless at that point. Instead we set a fidelity firewall of 0.1% distortion for our power tests.

 

[shokhead]

Gene,

What do you think of Sound and Vision's recent test results that showed the Denon 5805 as producing 121 Watts X 5 into 8 ohms? That is a miserable rating, especially for a $6,000, 100 pound, flagship receiver.

As a 5805 owner I am pissed.

Any comments?

-Brian

They say you get what you pay for. LMAO.

 

[PENG]

Here we go again with the misconceptions of "all channels driven". I suppose no matter how much we write about how flawed that test scenario is, people will still treat it as the holly grail test for power amps.

Not me, you convinced me long time ago.

Question:

I read several lab measurement results by H.T. S&V, Home Cinema Choice etc., and if I remember correctly, H.K. models (except for the flag ship AVR7XXX/AVR8XXX) "honest" 5,7 channel driven power ratings but their 2 channel ratings, though honest, are generally lower than comparable Pioneer Elite, Denon, and Yamaha models. In your opinion, and in practical sense, do you think one is actually better off with receivers that offer better 2 channel power output ratings.

I am talking about e.g. such as the 630 vs 52TX, 3805 vs 2500 for e.g. The 630 (likely the 635 as well) has quite a bit less 2 channel power than the others. Sorry if I am off the topic.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I gotta say what I really like about the newer Denon stuff is the full zone 2 with HD component output.

That means the plasma in my Master Bedroom can be wired via component video and have a set of in-wall speakers that are driven off the same receiver that powers my main viewing area.

Then, when I want to watch a DVD and my wife wants to watch cable, one of us can go to the bedroom to do so. Probably me.

Zone 3 feeds my distributed audio system...

zone 4? Heck, I don't know things are getting crazy there.

 

[anamorphic96]

<<Were you honestly expecting an AVR to compete with monoblocks in sheer output? >>

Wow! I love how people on here take a post and turn it into a load of assumptions. Where did I say that I wanted it to compete w/ Monoblocks? Where did I say I was unhappy w/ how loud the receiver played? And where did I say that I was not happy w/ how the unit sounded?

If I pay $6K for a receiver and they advertise its output at 170 X 10 ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN, I have EVERY right to expect that output. REGARDLESS of what real world affect it has on sound I have a right to expect the unit to perform to spec.

It appears that the measurements may be wrong. If this is the case then great! If not, I have every right to expect better.

I find it intersting that everyone blasted me for expecting the unit to perform as advertised. Give me a good reason why I should NOT expect it to perform to spec?

Brian,

If think your mistaken. The Denon literature does not state the unit is all channels driven.

 

[briansmith]

Brian,

If think your mistaken. The Denon literature does not state the unit is all channels driven.

Yes. I was mistaken. Regardless, the numbers in S&V for 5 channels is a poor showing and that is all I had to go on at the time.

I got a direct response from Denon and according to them the 170 is for "2 Channels driven".

-Brian

 

[shokhead]

Equal Power Amplifiler
Worlds first 10ch equal power A/V Reciever featuring fully configurable amplifliers

 

[3db]

I think NAD does .

I believe NAD states this..

No manafacture's state Wattage with 5 or 7channels running, its either 1 or 2channels(as in Denon's case). also look at the distortion factors at that wattage.

Pioneer state in their specs the 170W VSX-2014iG receiver only outputs 130W and thats at 1%THD see the link
http://www.pioneeraus.com.au/home_entertainment/receivers/vsx2014ig/index.html#anch_0 their $8000 one is probably measured the same way

Compare that to denons 170W (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05 % THD)

As mtrycrafts found denons figures are in the ballpark


cheers

 

[PENG]

I believe NAD states this..

Among others, HK also provide 7 channel driven rating but I do not recall seeing any manufacturer's literatures stating that those ratings are for continuous duty. And yes, I know, there is no need to worry about continous rating at that kind of level.

 

[gene]

I remember correctly, H.K. models (except for the flag ship AVR7XXX/AVR8XXX) "honest" 5,7 channel driven power ratings but their 2 channel ratings, though honest, are generally lower than comparable Pioneer Elite, Denon, and Yamaha models. In your opinion, and in practical sense, do you think one is actually better off with receivers that offer better 2 channel power output ratings.

I don't spend alot of time reading other publications or critiquing their test results. However what we have seen is some companies design their amps to be more dynamic when one or two channels are driven while others tend to design for less power but the ability of driving more of the channels at that rated power. I suggest reading the following article to understand why:

Product Managing Receiver Platforms

That being said, within the same price we have found Denon amps to be class leading in terms of power delivery, noise etc.

Regardless of how the manufacturers are rating their receivers, the 5805 is still the most powerful receiver with traditional analog amps we have seen, but more importantly it has brute power with finesse.

People get way to hung up with "all channels driven" and its truly sad that marketing has brainwashed the industry for so long into this misconception that puts a best case test load and worst case test condition on the table which can only fly if the tester regulates the line voltage and has enough amperage to back it up.

Its not just for receivers, take a 200wpc x 7 dedicated amp that runs one line cord and you still have the same limitations unless its a switching amp with much higher efficiency than a class a/b.

Regardless under normal listening conditions the amp will never see this type of load for a variety of reasons:
1) Music is peaky and not a constant test tone, thus you want an amp that has plenty of headroom to accomodate.
2) In a 5 or 7CH environment, the actual power per channel used is much less since you have multiple sources producing sound in the room which increases the overall SPL level.
3) Most speakers voice coils will fry if fed a continuous signal of 200wpc, but your ears would likely fry first.
4) Most speakers are crossed over and the bass redirected to a sub(s) where the bulk of power is consumed to achieve high SPL levels.

We have addressed this issue several times in this forum (wish I could find the links), but its more obvious now then ever we need to write a formal article on it. I will add this to our list.

 

[Takeereasy]

Yes please file this away on a to do list. Right under solve world hunger, end wars, but just a little ahead of cure for cancer please. I mean jeesh, the things you guys have to do to keep the masses (including me) happy. I didn't know that they'd come up with the 28hr day yet.

 

[gene]

I didn't know that they'd come up with the 28hr day yet.

And all of this free of charge to our loving readers

Sometimes I wish there were 28hrs in a day, or cloning or both