Denon 2200 better than 2900 for audio

[Bevan]

i'm using analogue connections to an Arcam A85 integrated with 7.1 pre-amp module.

the difference between the players is slight. but i can pick it 20/20 in blind abx tests. but before this turns into another dbx flame war, i'll add that if i wasnt doing INSTANTANIOUS swithching using two copies of the same cd i dont think i'd be able to pick it reliably. but if i'm able to switch back and forth as many times as i like and take as long as i like i can tell the difference every time. i think this is the only was i'll ever test hifi equpiment, even if it means setting up two identical amps or sets of speakers. i dont believe our short term memory is good enough to stand the time it takes to switch cables. well mine anyway.

been reading around, and found mention of one professional reviewer who prefered the audio of the 2200, and concluded that his 2900 may have been defective. also found a consumer review from a guy who sounded like he knew what he was talking about, saying he preferd the 2200 as it was livelier than the 2900 which he found a bit dark. this accords pretty closely to my findings.

j_garcia, how would you describe the sound of the two players?

many thanks

b

 

[j_garcia]

I'm not dealing with a 2900 which had factory defaults, but it appears that the 2900 can only adjust it's speaker levels down. There are only "-" and no "+" adjustments leaving me with only 10dB of adjustment, so I had to drop all the speaker levels down by -5 and use my receiver to compensate for the missing 10dB on the .1 channel for hires music (DD and DTS decoding has this built in, but hires does not). The 2200 has a feature to add +10dB to the hires signal automatically, so I didn't have to touch the speaker levels, I adjusted them on my receiver's external input adjustment.

Multichannel audio was the first thing I tried out between the two. "Darker" is probably not a bad way to describe the 2900, because it is a bit softer and smoother than the 2200, some of which I attribute to having to knock the speaker levels down. I find this smoothness more appealing for music to be honest, but it is clear that I have to make some serious adjustments to the 2900 to have good bass and really had to work to dial in the sound, while this wasn't necessary on the 2200. The 2200 is an excellent all around player. My other point of reference is my 222ES, which bests both of them for SACD playback. The 2900 sounds more refined to my ears than the 2200 and seemed to give a more spacious feel to the music. In 2ch, I probably couldn't pick them apart reliably either though.

So the 2200 being a bit brighter and the 2900 lacking a bit in bass unless setup correctly, could easily add to the perception that the 2200 was more "lively".

Very nice Arcam integrated BTW

 

[tbewick]

Hello j_garcia,

I haven't heard either of these players. My point is that audio CD in a well-designed set up should be entirely transparent. I'm therefore surprised that these two Denon units should sound different to each other. I have read that some digital systems perform better than others, but seeing as most DAC's used are 24 bit these days (and at least 18 bit accurate, according to Rane), 16-bit playback should surely be no trouble.

Just to clarify, I was referring to the possible dynamic range over playback on a pair of very good quality speakers, CD player and a high quality amplifier. Speakers usually restrict the dynamic range more than other components in the system. With 85 dB dynamic range, you'd also need hardly any background noise.

 

[j_garcia]

I don't want to get into the whole DAC don't matter and a $100 CD player is just as good as a $1000 player debate again... I don't agree that all players are exactly the same. DACs are one small part of the chain that does influence the sound of the component. If it didn't matter, these people wouldn't waste their time designing what they consider to be better gear if they already knew that no matter what they did, it would still sound the same. They don't do it just to make people pay more for the same thing.

 

[MACCA350]

As I said before I know the chassis(including the loading mechanisim and layout) is cheaper on the 2200 and they use different DAC's, but has anyone opened both up and compared the rest of the hardware(eg. other chips not stated in Denon's info). Here is Denon's info on the two units, I've Highlighted the only differences Denon has stated, apart from those, the two write-ups are word for word exactly the same.

2200:

Powered by the Silicon Image PureProgressive (SiL504) Decoding Engine - highest quality progressive decoding engine available
• PureProgressive decoding features high speed ultra-resolution DSP at 6 Billion Operations Per Second (6 GOPS)with 64Mb external SDRAM
• 4 fields (2 frames) digital video processing for optimum motion detection and compensation
• Accurate 2:3 pulldown detection and reconstruction, even with inaccurately flagged content
• Optimum processing for film content, video content, graphics content and mixed-mode content
• 12fps(Animation), Video overlay detection and processing
• New 'Chroma Bug Free' Mitsubishi MPEG/DVD-Audio Decoder
• Sony CXD-2753 Second Generation DSD Decoder
• High resolution Analog Devices ADV-7300, 12 bit/108 MHz, 4:4:4, Video D/A Conversion system featuring Noise Shaped Video processing - interlaced and progressive output
• 4x Oversampling Progressive and 8x Interlace output
• 2X DVD read speed; 4X CD/CD-R/CD-RW read speed; with 8MB drive buffer memory
• Built-in Dolby Digital, dts, DVD-Audio and discrete SACD decoders with 5.1 analog outputs
• Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD-1791 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals discretely with no down-conversion of DSD
• Full Digital Bass Management for DVD-Audio/Video, featuring Analog Devices Melody 32-bit processor; 80Hz crossover with 12dB high and 24dB low pass slopes; Adjustable delay time(0-15ms)and Channel Levels
• Full Digital Bass Management for SACD; 80Hz crossover with 6/12dB slopes on all channels; Adjustable channel levels
• MP3 Playback
• Plays Audio/Video CDs; DVD-Audio/Video; Super Audio CD; DVD+/-R/RW(conditional); Audio CD-R/RW; MP3 CD-R/RW (128 or higher kbps recommended)
• JPEG photo file viewer, Kodak Picture CD and Fujicolor CD compatible
• 24/96 digital output; optical and coaxial
• Zoom Controls
• Pure Direct Modes to defeat unneeded portions of player for the ultimate in audio performance
• Wideband relay switched component video output
• Variable Black Level (Setup): 0 and 7.5 IRE
• Passes below-black (PLUGE) on progressive and interlace outputs
• 5 Picture Memories, with adjustable tint, brightness, contrast, sharpness and Gamma
• SuperSub Alias Filter on Progressive and Interlace for Luminance and Chrominance signals
• (1)Composite and (1)"S" video outputs
• SRS TruSurround
• Remote in/out ports
• Glo-Key remote control
• Dimensions: 17.1"w x 4.0"h x 12.5"d

2900:

Powered by the Silicon Image/DVDO PureProgressive (SiI504) Decoding Engine - highest quality progressive decoding engine available
• PureProgressive decoding features high speed ultra-resolution DSP at 6 Billion Operations Per Second (6 GOPS)with 64Mb external SDRAM
• 4 fields (2 frames) digital video processing for optimum motion detection and compensation
• Accurate 2:3 pulldown detection and reconstruction, even with inaccurately flagged content
• Optimum processing for film content, video content, graphics content and mixed-mode content
• 12fps(Animation), Video overlay detection and processing
• New 'Chroma Bug Free' Mitsubishi MPEG/DVD-Audio Decoder
• Sony CXD-2753 Second Generation DSD Decoder
• High resolution Analog Devices ADV-7300, 12 bit/108 MHz, 4:4:4, Video D/A Conversion system featuring Noise Shaped Video processing - interlaced and progressive output
• 4x Oversampling Progressive and 8x Interlace output
• 2X DVD read speed; 4X CD/CD-R/CD-RW read speed; with 8MB drive buffer memory
• Built-in Dolby Digital, dts, DVD-Audio and discrete SACD decoders with 5.1 analog outputs
• DENON designed, Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD-1790 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals discretely with no down-conversion of DSD • Full Digital Bass Management for DVD-Audio, featuring Analog Devices Melody 32-bit processor; 80Hz crossover with 12dB high and 24dB low pass slopes; Adjustable delay time(0-15ms)and Channel Levels
• Full Digital Bass Management for SACD; 80Hz crossover with 6/12dB slopes on all channels; Adjustable channel levels
• MP3 Playback
• Plays Audio/Video CDs; DVD-Audio/Video; Super Audio CD; DVD+/-R/RW(conditional); Audio CD-R; Audio CD-RW; MP3 CD-R/RW (128 or higher kbps recommended)
• JPEG photo file viewer, Kodak Picture CD and Fujicolor CD compatible
• 24/96 digital output; optical and coaxial
• 4:3 Shrink and Zoom Controls
• Pure Direct Modes to defeat unneeded portions of player for the ultimate in audio performance
• 2 box, 5 block internal layout to isolate analog, digital and video circuits
• Wideband relay switched component video output
• Variable Black Level (Setup): 0 and 7.5 IRE
• Passes below-black (PLUGE) on progressive and interlace outputs
• 5 Picture Memories, with adjustable tint, brightness, contrast, sharpness and Gamma
• SuperSub Alias Filter on Progressive and Interlace for Luminance and Chrominance signals
• (1)Composite and (1)"S" video outputs
• SRS TruSurround
• RS-232C and remote in/out ports
• Glo-Key remote control
• Dimensions: 17.1"w x 5.2"h x 13.0"d

Mabey someone should ask Denon what other components are different. And mabey the difference people are hearing is due to the different DAC's and internal layout's of the units.

j_garcia, I made no assumtion, and I didn't say that the DSD-1791 was for sure better than the the Denon designed DSD-1790(only Denon and TI know that, unless someone has the specs for it). I only said:

going by Texas Instruments inventory the higher the number the better the DAC(I found the tech specs on the 1791 but not the 1790(since these were only contracted to Denon, you'd have to get them off Denon), so I cant compare the two directly)

Have a look at the tech specs of the DSD-17xx line on Ti's website and see for yourself the difference between the models listed from:

DSD-1702(US$1.95, Dynamic Range: 106 dB Typ, THD+N: 0.0015% Typ, etc.)

to

DSD-1796(US$6.50, Dynamic Range: 123 dB, THD+N: 0.0005%, etc.)

Anyway, I'm not starting a flame war, this is just information that I have found about the subject.

chillout,
cheers

 

[Rob Babcock]

FWIW The Absolute Sound has reported that they've found the '2200 to actually be sonically superior to the '2900. In fact, they implied that it made them wonder if their 2900 was "broken." As usual, YMMV.

I've lived very happily with my '2200 for a year or two and can say I've experienced no listener fatigue whatsoever.

 

[Bevan]

also had my 2200 for about a year and never thought it fatiguing except on the odd cd which i'm sure was mixed a bit too bright.

but i'm starting to enjoy the layed back nature of the 2900 now infact. my ears have become quite sensitive to high frequency sounds the last few months after suffering some noise induced damage, so ymmv.

depending on the rest of the system and personal preference, i'm not going to call which is the 'better' player.

b