Def Techs, B&Ws, Focals Audition.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

I just spoke with a very knowledgeable audio tech at Def Tech. This is a more complex subject than can be easily explained in a few paragraphs and once questions are asked the subject gets even more complex. The reason is that each room will require different solutions to get the desired results and what good for one room can give completely different results in even a similar room.

All BP models are being upgraded over the next month, but the flagship BP 7000 is not planned to be replaced as the engineers cannot improve on the design.

Here's some of what we spoke about. Basically, when you move Bipolars further from the reflective wall you tighten up the base and get less boom. Also as I assume most folks reading this already know the Bipolar speakers produce a big expansive sound that typically delivers even sound to most of the room. So the room is more evenly filled with audio. Whereas direct radiated speakers have somewhat tight and much smaller sweet spot.

So if you were listing to a concert with BP towers you might not be able to pick out where the musical instruments are exactly placed on the stage. However, for example, with Mythos ST towers you could close your eyes and point to any instrument on the stage and likely get it right.

Another issue in placing these speakers is which way you face the built-in powered sub-woofers. If you place them facing each other you should get more base punch.

Like all speakers experimenting with proper placement is vital to get them to sound and perform best in your environment and the more I learn about BP speakers the more I see how much time we need to properly place these in the right rooms and positioned properly.

From what I would recommend BP speakers are best if you want a big expansive sound that fills the room with omni-directional music.

BTW, my background is in video as I was a professional TV Broadcast engineer before I started my retail a/v store some 14 years ago. We have other staff specialists for our audio sales and support.

Hope this helps.

-Robert

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All BP models are being upgraded over the next month, but the flagship BP 7000 is not planned to be replaced as the engineers cannot improve on the design.

I guess you just can't improve on PERFECTION.

Thanks, Robert.

Everything you mentioned makes sense.

The BP7000SCs can seriously fill my 3,000 sf house.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

DefTech Bipolars...

This comes to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3_HHZFi0As

 

[GlocksRock]

I'm interested in the changes being made to the BP series... guess I'll have to keep an eye on their website, or their large ads in Sound and Vision magazine.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if you were listing to a concert with BP towers you might not be able to pick out where the musical instruments are exactly placed on the stage. However, for example, with Mythos ST towers you could close your eyes and point to any instrument on the stage and likely get it right.

On second thought, this statement is false.

Just because they are BIPOLAR does not mean you cannot locate the instruments in the soundfield/soundstage.

I always listen to 2Ch music. The soundstage/image that my BP7000SCs create is very real and I can locate the instrument placement just as well as any speakers I've ever listened to (including the B&W800D & the Mythos towers).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Take Home Message is that all bipolar speakers regardless of brand are more difficult to place than direct-radiating speakers.

If you have the room and placement flexibility, the Bipolar speakers can sound extremely good.

Otherwise, buy direct-radiating speakers like the Mythos or other brands.

Whether a speaker is bipolar, omnipolar, or direct-radiating, your soundstage and imaging should be as real as possible and you should be able to locate instruments. If you can't, then something is wrong - like speaker placement, etc.

For example, even in 2Ch, the vocals should usually come from the CENTER.

The only thing you can't locate is the 20Hz subwoofer BASS.

 

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

On second thought, this statement is false.

Just because they are BIPOLAR does not mean you cannot locate the instruments in the soundfield/soundstage.

I always listen to 2Ch music. The soundstage/image that my BP7000SCs create is very real and I can locate the instrument placement just as well as any speakers I've ever listened to (including the B&W800D & the Mythos towers).

Very respectfully, I disagree. BP speakers fill the room very evenly with sound and it's more difficult to pinpoint the exact location of any particular instrument. I tried this experiment with BP 7001 and Mythos STS towers and the directional audio performance was very different.

It's hard to say which tower type any particular person would like better as I loved the sound of both speaker systems. I would say their are two advantage with BP speakers; first is the sweet spot is bigger and second is that you can cover a larger area and even adjacent rooms and hallways. Whereas direct radiating speakers have smaller sweet spots.

-Robert

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Very respectfully, I disagree. BP speakers fill the room very evenly with sound and it's more difficult to pinpoint the exact location of any particular instrument. I tried this experiment with BP 7001 and Mythos STS towers and the directional audio performance was very different.

-Robert

Can you pinpoint the exact location of the lead vocals on the BP7001s?

Or are they all over the place too?

 

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

To the best of my recall I do believe the vocals seemed to be center stage, not 100% sure as mostly we played instrumentals.

I would not exactly describe any audio to be all over the place, but the BPs definitely had a wide disbursement of the audio and the exact locations of the instruments was difficult to pinpoint. When we switched to the Mythos STS towers the sound stage was very tight and each instrument had it own spacial disbursement.

-Robert

 

[GlocksRock]

When I listen to my BP7001SC's I sometimes have to get up and go listen to make sure the center isn't playing since it sounds like it is, but it never is... the vocals are very centered, it sounds amazing.

 

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

I agree ^^.

-Robert

 

[AJinFLA]

Very respectfully, I disagree. BP speakers fill the room very evenly with sound and it's more difficult to pinpoint the exact location of any particular instrument. I tried this experiment with BP 7001 and Mythos STS towers and the directional audio performance was very different.

At what distance were the bipolars positioned the front and side walls and how reflective were they?
What you are describing is an indication that they were too close, resulting in exactly as predicted by what I linked before (Haas, which hopefully you read). There is no reason why the BP's shouldn't have pinpoint lateral imaging like the monopole, unless there was excessive early reflections. The main difference should be the sense of depth and soundfield spaciousness...exactly as predicted by established psychoacoustics. No mystery or overcomplexity.

cheers,

AJ

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm interested in the changes being made to the BP series... guess I'll have to keep an eye on their website, or their large ads in Sound and Vision magazine.

http://hometheaterreview.com/definitive-technology-introduces-all-new-bipolar-supertowers-with-matching-center-and-surround-models/

Preliminary Specifications

Model - BP-8080ST
MSRP - $1,499
Height - 48-1/4″
Front Array - 2 @ 5- ¼″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 5-1/4″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Powered Subwoofer System - 12″ active with 2 @ 12″ passive radiators, 455 Watts

Model - BP-8060ST
MSRP - $999
Height - 44-3/16″
Front Array - 2 @ 4-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 4-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Powered Subwoofer System - 10″ active with 2 @ 10″ passive radiators, 300 Watts

Model - BP-8040ST
MSRP - $799
Height - 39″
Front Array - 2 @ 3-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 3-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Powered Subwoofer System - 8″ active with 2 @ 8″ passive radiators, 300 Watts

Model - BP-8020ST
MSRP - $599
Height - 35 7/8″
Front Array - 2 @ 3-1/2″; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 3-1/2″
Powered Subwoofer System - 8″ ported, 150 Watts

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

At what distance were the bipolars positioned the front and side walls and how reflective were they?
What you are describing is an indication that they were too close, resulting in exactly as predicted by what I linked before (Haas, which hopefully you read). There is no reason why the BP's shouldn't have pinpoint lateral imaging like the monopole, unless there was excessive early reflections. The main difference should be the sense of depth and soundfield spaciousness...exactly as predicted by established psychoacoustics. No mystery or overcomplexity.

cheers,

AJ

Exactly.

I doubt that the designers of bipole/omi-pole speakers like Linkwitz, DefTech, Mirage, etc. wanted to make speakers that create a soundfield where no one can tell if the violin is playing from the front left or the right side or the left rear.

They designed the speakers to sound MORE LIKE REAL LIFE CONCERTS.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

Even The Audio Critic guru prefers omi-pole/dipole speakers, and it's not because he prefers not being able to tell where the cello, violin, flutes are playing from.

Quote from The Audio Critic on the omi-pole/dipole/bipole Linkwitz Orion (speaker drivers on front & rear):

"The big surprise comes when you first put on a CD, preferably of orchestral music. What’s going on here? The depth of the soundstage has tripled in comparison with high-end box speakers! Everything is more spacious, more solidly defined, more clearly directional, more 3-D. It’s not a small difference. It’s close to a revelation. The orchestra is laid out with crystal clarity behind the speakers, with respect to both left/center/right placement and front/middle/back placement...The subjective impression is that the speakers are no longer there; the listener is looking into the soundstage—big or small, as the case may be—without any intermediary."

Speaker design:
Two 10" woofers...they fire into open air forwards and backwards...the 8" woofer/midrange is also mounted completely open, front and back...a 1" soft-dome tweeter is also open, front and back...

Darn, I wish my BP7000SC had TWO 14"-subwoofers w/ 1 firing front and 1 firing back.

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=Default&Date=200502&blogId=1

 

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

AJ, we spent much of the day moving the BP towers and listening to different music so I can't give you exact measurements on the distances from the walls. I can tell you that we used a range of 6" to almost 2' in our testing.

Sorry if I can't get some of you to agree with what we heard; I assume you agree that BP technology are designed to utilize more reflected sound waves than direct firing speakers and reflected sound waves fill the room more evenly than a direct sound wave footprint.

-Robert

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I assume you agree that BP technology are designed to utilize more reflected sound waves than direct firing speakers and reflected sound waves fill the room more evenly than a direct sound wave footprint.

I agree that bipolar speaker technology attempts to create a more realistic life-like 3D soundstage experience than conventional speakers.

 

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

We agree. But may I suggest that a 3D sound stage diffuses the actual location of any particular location.

Also, considering when we are at a live concert we are hearing the amplified music which does not accurately depict the location of any instrument.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; my intent is to fine tune our opinions.

-Robert

 

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

http://hometheaterreview.com/definitive-technology-introduces-all-new-bipolar-supertowers-with-matching-center-and-surround-models/

Preliminary Specifications

Model - BP-8080ST
MSRP - $1,499
Height - 48-1/4″
Front Array - 2 @ 5- ¼″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 5-1/4″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Powered Subwoofer System - 12″ active with 2 @ 12″ passive radiators, 455 Watts

Model - BP-8060ST
MSRP - $999
Height - 44-3/16″
Front Array - 2 @ 4-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 4-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Powered Subwoofer System - 10″ active with 2 @ 10″ passive radiators, 300 Watts

Model - BP-8040ST
MSRP - $799
Height - 39″
Front Array - 2 @ 3-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 3-1/2″ BDSS; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Powered Subwoofer System - 8″ active with 2 @ 8″ passive radiators, 300 Watts

Model - BP-8020ST
MSRP - $599
Height - 35 7/8″
Front Array - 2 @ 3-1/2″; 1 @ 1″ AL dome
Rear Array - 1 @ 3-1/2″
Powered Subwoofer System - 8″ ported, 150 Watts

I posted some additional information on this [post=728548]thread[/post]

-Robert

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We agree. But may I suggest that a 3D sound stage diffuses the actual location of any particular location.

Also, considering when we are at a live concert we are hearing the amplified music which does not accurately depict the location of any instrument.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; my intent is to fine tune our opinions.

-Robert

I don't remember seeing any speakers and amplifiers the last time I went to a classical music concert? The only thing I saw were the instruments and the people playing them.

I'm 100% sure that the sound I heard at the chamber music concert came directly from the instruments.

So 3D = Diffuse, huh?

I guess 2D = Accurate Real Life?

 

[AJinFLA]

What you are describing is an indication that they were too close, resulting in exactly as predicted by what I linked before (Haas, which hopefully you read).

I can tell you that we used a range of 6" to almost 2' in our testing.

Then what resulted audibly, is as exactly as predicted Robert. Perhaps you could forward the links I provided, to the DefTech "tech".

Sorry if I can't get some of you to agree with what we heard

Who "disagrees" with "what you heard"????

I assume you agree that BP technology are designed to utilize more reflected sound waves than direct firing speakers and reflected sound waves fill the room more evenly than a direct sound wave footprint.

Yes...and depending on the time delay/intensity (propagation distance/absorption) of those reflections, that can be a positive (spaciousness/depth) or negative (smeared image) addition. Quite simple really.

cheers,

AJ