Dedicated Home Theater Setup ~10k Help

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You would never guess what I do for a living, no don't even try. PM is a hassle, my htpc is in my sig, but i don't recommend to follow that route. It was a learning thing, shoving in zfs into ubuntu server ... it's not pretty, but it works...

Next time Freenas/zfs with jailed plugins is what I would do. openelec/XBMC is best media client combo imo and ADTG would agree
I use Windows7/XBMC combo and I think it's awesome. I've never played with OpenELEC.

I used to favor the big 30TB server, but now that I compress all my BDs (using Handbrake software) to under 10GB (1080p, DTS-HD MA 5.1 & DD 5.1) and with 4TB HDDs, I see no point of the server because most PCs can hold 4-6 HDDs which equals 16-24TB. :D
 
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blcskate

Junior Audioholic
Waiting for the 4k projectors to come down in price might make sense since connecting everything might be easier when HDMI 2.0 becomes more widespread and adopted on 4k projectors.

As for separate amplifiers, what determines whether you should get them is the speakers. Some speakers pull a lot of current through the amp, and for many AVRs it can be more than they should try to handle. Current generates heat, and heat is the enemy of electronics reliability.
Ya I have been going back and forth on the Sony 4k projector. It is pretty amazing. I have seen it in person at two theaters now, but the price point for a single one is high and I want 2 eventually. I would be much better served with 2 at 5k each. The FPS is fine for passive projection of most current movies, but for future growth 60 would be nice. Who knows how long that will take to land though. Could be 3-4 years.

If I did lower my projector then I would probably pick up separate amps simply because they last a long time and reduce the load on the receiver. Would you still go with the x4000 or are there better pre/pros? I am building on a system that hopefully I can keep in place for 10+ years. I know I will change out the receiver before then, but solid speakers and amps should last that long. I would rather add to them then replace entirely (9.2 etc). I value the little things. Subtle sound differences. I have exceptional hearing. I don't play things incredibly loud, but I want to hear everything a movie has to offer. Down to the buzzing of a street light or whistling breeze in an alley. The immersion is better like that then simply pounding gun fire for 2 hrs.

One other thought. Instead of getting a second sub. What about doing something like buttkickers under each seat. Would this add to the effect or would you still need a 2nd sub with these to get the full immersion?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If I did lower my projector then I would probably pick up separate amps simply because they last a long time and reduce the load on the receiver. Would you still go with the x4000 or are there better pre/pros? I am building on a system that hopefully I can keep in place for 10+ years. I know I will change out the receiver before then, but solid speakers and amps should last that long. I would rather add to them then replace entirely (9.2 etc). I value the little things. Subtle sound differences. I have exceptional hearing. I don't play things incredibly loud, but I want to hear everything a movie has to offer. Down to the buzzing of a street light or whistling breeze in an alley. The immersion is better like that then simply pounding gun fire for 2 hrs.

One other thought. Instead of getting a second sub. What about doing something like buttkickers under each seat. Would this add to the effect or would you still need a 2nd sub with these to get the full immersion?
For amps, I recommend ATI amps because I own 4 of them and all 4 amps run cooler than many other amps and AVR. Most of us know this, but just in case you did not, ATI makes amps for other companies per their spec - Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, Outlaw, and others undisclosed. ATI also owns B&K and Theta Digital. IOW, ATI is a well known amp company that has been around over 30 years. You may be able to get ATI amps for 50% off. ;)

Parasound is another favorite among audiophiles. Discounts here as well.

As far as pre-pro, you might ask for deals on the Marantz pre-pro or Denon 4520 AVR.

My Denon 3312 runs very hot. That's why I use a fan to cool it for extended use. I don't know if the X4000 also runs very hot. I don't know if the Denon 4520 or Marantz pre-pro runs cooler. Others who own the X4000 and 4520 may chime in.

I do know my Denon 5308 and AVP-A1HDCI run a lot cooler than the Denon 3312, so price does have something to do with it. :D

The good thing about getting a less expensive AVR/processor is that if you need to replace it in a few years, it doesn't hurt as bad. So in terms of SQ, I would still get the X4000. :D
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
trap trap trap and then, trap some more...
On the inside walls I did put a lot of effort into soundproofing. Spacers in walls, Roxal in wall, putty on all sockets, rubber flooring under subfloor, hung plywood on the wall spacers followed by green glue and acoustic drywall.
My poorly worded post did not correctly convey my thoughts. I was talking of acoustical treatments called 'bass traps'. These absorb energy in bass frequencies and prevent the sound from the previously played notes interfering with notes currently being played.

Here is an example, http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/

There are several DIY options that are cost effective.
 
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blcskate

Junior Audioholic
That is the route I was planning to go with processors. I think I will be going the amp route. I simply want to ensure I get the best out of the speakers and I want a system that is flexible for the long haul. Between my kids and me we typically put 4-8hrs a day on our system. Once you get used to a theater its hard to use anything else. Although I would love a good 4k 3d headset for hotels/planes (hurry it up Sony - HMZ-T9 or whatever that iteration will be :eek: ) To date no 3d I have seen compares to head displays. Separate screens for each eye is simply perfect.
 
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blcskate

Junior Audioholic
My poorly worded post did not correctly convey my thoughts. I was talking of acoustical treatments called 'bass traps'. These absorb energy in bass frequencies and prevent the sound from the previously played notes interfering with notes currently being played.

Here is an example, GIK Acoustics 244 Bass Trap with FlexRange Technology

There are several DIY options that are cost effective.
Sorry I wasn't directly replying to your post. I do know what bass traps are. They will be added to my room afterwards though. I have to have my walls done first. I like to build my own stuff, but I usually have someone more knowledgeable then me tell me what to put where. I plan to build my own bass traps, diffusers, and wall panels. I just wish I was better with CAD and I could layout the room in advance. I normally just end up building things and seeing how they make sense together.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That is the route I was planning to go with processors. I think I will be going the amp route. I simply want to ensure I get the best out of the speakers and I want a system that is flexible for the long haul. Between my kids and me we typically put 4-8hrs a day on our system. Once you get used to a theater its hard to use anything else. Although I would love a good 4k 3d headset for hotels/planes (hurry it up Sony - HMZ-T9 or whatever that iteration will be :eek: ) To date no 3d I have seen compares to head displays. Separate screens for each eye is simply perfect.
Well, most of us own amps whether we need them or not. :D

I may end up getting another ATI amp (maybe AT1202 or AT1802) for my Denon 3312 just because. :D

I despise 3D video. I avoid 3D video at theaters and it's the same at home. Pure gimmick to me.

I do like the idea of 4K video DOWN THE LINE when it is ubiquitous and low cost like DPL is today.

One technology I was hoping would be more prominent by now is LED projectors. I like the idea that a lamp could maintain luminance over 20 years, instead of declining brightness every few months of use. But alas I don't see many LED projectors anywhere. :(

I love my LED light bulbs at home. :D I love the fact that a 40W-equivalent bulb only uses 6W of actual power.

I have 2 DLP projectors right now. But I was hoping to replace them down the line with LED projectors. So I really look forward to LED even more than 4K especially since we don't even have a medium for 4K (there are no Blu-ray disc with 4K video, if that is even possible for Blu-ray).
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I will stay off the topic of speakers, you have a zillion speaker choices and most of them are good to excellent.

On pre/pros I have been only moderately happy with Denon in better setups. I used to swear by them, but their receivers simply do not run for long periods of time at higher volumes. They shut down and can't handle their own power ratings, so I would definitely go with a separate amp to drive things.

That said, Denon does have well built products, and their processing and connectivity is excellent. The Marantz products have really improved with the joining to Denon, and the Marantz AV7701 is a excellent product for the money. Similar to the Denon 4000, but without the noise of the internal amplifiers and balanced audio outputs to connect to a good amp.

Their matching amp is also excellent: Marantz US | MM7055

They have a 7 channel amp, or you could go with two of those, and have room for more speaker growth if you want to go down the 9.2 pathway moving forward.

As far as your screen - you have a great manufacturer of somewhat overpriced screens right now. Top shelf, but questionable as to whether it is the 'best' for a standard 120" screen. There are certainly options out there which will be 'just as good', but you have 120" and if your screen size and viewing distance are good, then swapping out the screen is going to be costly, and may not make any sense at all.

The projector is a different story. What projector do you have now? How much do you crave the pseudo first generation 4K options that we have right now? I say pseudo because HDMI 2.0 is just coming to market and is really unavailable in full specification on any projectors that I'm aware of. There is the 'promise' of HDMI 2.0, but at what level? In 1 year I expect full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 projectors to be on market with decent processing. I expect JVC and Sony to have LCoS models well under $10,000 within a year, and maybe less than 2 years to sub $5,000 offerings. I would wait. That's not to say that the Sony 600 isn't the best looking projector I've ever seen - it is. But, the price point it comes in at is ridiculous compared to what we will see in the next couple of years, and the upgrades in processing that will go along with it are going to be extremely significant and likely worth the wait.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Ya I have been going back and forth on the Sony 4k projector. It is pretty amazing. I have seen it in person at two theaters now, but the price point for a single one is high and I want 2 eventually. I would be much better served with 2 at 5k each. The FPS is fine for passive projection of most current movies, but for future growth 60 would be nice. Who knows how long that will take to land though. Could be 3-4 years.

If I did lower my projector then I would probably pick up separate amps simply because they last a long time and reduce the load on the receiver. Would you still go with the x4000 or are there better pre/pros? I am building on a system that hopefully I can keep in place for 10+ years. I know I will change out the receiver before then, but solid speakers and amps should last that long. I would rather add to them then replace entirely (9.2 etc). I value the little things. Subtle sound differences. I have exceptional hearing. I don't play things incredibly loud, but I want to hear everything a movie has to offer. Down to the buzzing of a street light or whistling breeze in an alley. The immersion is better like that then simply pounding gun fire for 2 hrs.

One other thought. Instead of getting a second sub. What about doing something like buttkickers under each seat. Would this add to the effect or would you still need a 2nd sub with these to get the full immersion?
No doubt the Sony is an amazing projector, I haven't had the privilege of seeing it myself, but I bet you it will seem pretty long on the tooth in two or three years or so. I would just get a temporary projector, a good but not hugely expensive 1080p, until 4k technologies have matured a bit.

As for the x4000 with separate amps, something else you might consider is just using the X4000 as a temporary AVR and not worry about amps, but get amps for the AVR that you have to upgrade to when you upgrade the projectors. Remember, the x4000 can not handle HDMI 2.0 either, so I would consider it a temporary receiver for the route that you are thinking of here. That being the case, who cares if it doesn't last ten years because you will not be keeping it that long. Get your amps with your next AVR.

I definitely would not use buttkickers as a substitute for a second sub. A single sub is unlikely to achieve a flat frequency response in your room. If you are concerned about sound accuracy, get two subs, and make them good ones. Hell, get more than two if you can afford it. The more subs you get, the less hard they have to work, and the less hard they have to work, the longer they will last. Also the more subs you get, the flatter your room response becomes without equalization. If the Captivators are too much of an eyesore for you, you might think about some Funk 18.0se subs. More expensive yes, but gorgeous and very high performers. They offer very low distortion even when pushed to the edge. The driver, cabinet, and amplifier are world class. As for buttkickers, they look pretty gimmicky, I haven't tried them but I don't think they would be immersive so much as distracting. Besides, they only shake your seat, but a good sub system can do that too, but nothing can replace that punch-in-the-chest feeling that you get from real bass. The buttkickers look like they could be fun though, for things like fighter sims and combat driving games, and since they are not expensive, I suppose there is no harm in giving them a try. Like I said though, they are not a serious substitute for high performance bass. If you want that buttkicker effect but with all the glory of serious bass, take a decent subwoofer and place it directly behind your seat, ie near-field placement.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Another member (herbu) just verified that after 7 HRS of continuous use, the Denon X4000 does NOT get hot inside the cabinet, but only warm to touch. This is a huge improvement over the older Denon 3312 (2 generations ago). The 3312 gets extremely hot even after 2 hrs on top of an open glass rack.

I think the X4000 is a solid processor - good heat dissipation, good features, good price.
 
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blcskate

Junior Audioholic
Sorry been gone for a couple days (holiday). I had an Epson 8350, but I sold it when I moved to FL. Right now I just have the screen. I kept that since they are good forever and it costs me a lot when I got it (~3k). I have had it for almost ten years. I looked at the new LED projectors since I like that they run for crazy long times. If I were forced to buy today I would most likely go with 5030UB or the new LG LED (no-3d :( ). These would be temp solutions.

As for me and 3D. I love it. My wife and daughter cannot see it. My daughter is in vision therapy classes for it. My wife could care less. About 30% of the population cannot see or have very little 3D vision. This is because they have a dominant eye and it does most of the work. That negates the effects of 3D to almost nothing. The sessions my daughter has been doing have helped and she has better depth perception now as well.

Edit: One thing I forgot. Passive 3d when done right I love. Active is garbage as is some passive solutions. The only way to do really good passive that i have seen is with 2 projectors. I also have the oakley gascan 3d glasses and swear by them.

After talking about these ideas with everyone I made the decision to get the x4000 and a moderate projector <3k. This opens my budget quite a bit on speakers. I am going to demo some of the ones listed in this thread. I definitely want to get a 4k projector, but I think 6k is a sweet spot for me on that. For 6k I could get 2 for less than the current Sony one. I think by summer next year they should be in that price range. That only leaves me with a current gen model for 1 year and it gives the market some time to get 4k moving.

I can answer the question above on Blu-Ray 4k. It is possible with the high density blu-rays (100gb), but not on the current 50gb ones that most movies come with. These were developed a while ago, but are no where near mainstream right now. 4k 3D uncompressed would not likely fit on anything outside of a drive at this moment (unless the movie was very short ~40-50mins). Though they could also do a multi-disk solution. Blu-Ray 4k non-3d has already been announced and should start hitting shelves this year (very limited for sure).

4K Blu-ray discs set for release in 2014 | whathifi.com

I like being on the cutting edge with Tech. It is definitely not the cheap or stable way to go, but it does have its rewards. Even though I am constantly wanting something the market simply does not have. Its a perpetual state of waiting for the next big thing. Thankfully speakers are pretty stable and I won't have to upgrade those every 2-3 years. I want a sound system that lasts ~10 years minus the pre/pro for obvious reasons.
 
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blcskate

Junior Audioholic
New question for everyone.
My walls are up now and I have the pre-drywall walk through this week. Due to how far along the builders were I was not able to make changes to the walls to accommodate in-walls. My front speakers are going to be at 5' and the center will be at 3'. Because of this I assume I cannot use 3 of the same speakers for front stage. Does anyone have a really good recommendation for my front stage with a horizontal center? I don't have a specific price stop. My setup is going to be in the 10-15k range total. How much am I losing by not have 3 exactly the same fronts? Should I consider ripping a hole in the new walls right after moving in (major soundproofing concern on my end doing this)? Or can I get a setup like this that is very close to the same quality?
 
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