Dedicated CD player vs. DVD player

[miklorsmith]

Query:

So, if I'm out for biggest bang-for-the buck sound, and fit'n'finish aren't important for my redbook performance, am I best off with a solid but relatively inexpensive transport mated to a quality DAC? Any experience with non-oversampling DAC's. I've heard they are generally less microscopic in detail but provide a more "analog", natural sound.

 

[sploo]

Hello, people don't all hear the same. What comes into your ear is the actual sound, that may be slightly modified by the particular person's overall hearing ability. Some people have a sensitivity to certain frequencies, while others may be unable to hear specific frequencies well. On top of that, what your brain processes of that signal is a perception, which means ALL HEARING is a perception, influenced by an individual's predisposition for listening for certain characteristics.

I think the point mtrycrafts was making (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong ) was about our perceptions between two pieces of kit being coloured because we know we're hearing different pieces of kit.

I have absolutely no doubt that what exactly we hear (perceive) is different from person to person, so I suppose it's valid that different people would perceive different sounding players in different ways. However, given two players which should sound the same (by the mtrycrafts/WmAx argument) nobody (regardless of 'how' they hear) should be able to tell the difference in a DBT. Of course, different people may have differing perceptions based on how shiny the buttons are on the front panel, but we're all human.

 

[sts9fan]

shocking

"Please explain what, between a $100 player vs. the $500[no, go ahead and make that $15,000] player is going to differentiate the sound in an audible manner"

How about mass? Quality of build and components? You do you believe that the componets in a $100 player and a $1000 player are the same? Also I would never assume that a product is better due to price without doing research and listening. Also what about reliability? Is the motor in the $100 as good? Is the board manufactured as carefully?

What do you use as a cd player just for reference? I just finished modding my Toshiba 4060 and yes I can hear the difference.

 

[sploo]

Can't promise that it will happen right away, but I would certainly be willing to do it with a little guidance. As I stated previously, I do not detect audible differences when using digital outs and running them through a common DAC, but the analog outputs (which are the ones I care about for Redbook) are a different story.

This idea was sparked off, for me anyway, when I listened to a decent (roughly 1300USD) Denon DVD player vs. a (roughly 1000USD) Cyrus CD player.

The Cyrus was stunning, the Denon was OK (all through analogue obviously).

I'm currently running a borrowed Denon 3910 DVD player (a higher model than the one I heard), and I can't separate it playing CDs from a 200USD Sony Discman.

So why did I think the Cyrus sounded better? Hopefully a frequency response/distortion measurement would be enlightening.

 

[Buckle-meister]

What I don't see is why people insist on arguing what one person hears and another does not, whether it is measureable or not.

Absolutely. The problem here is of mutual respect, or rather, a lack of it.

Mtrycrafts, when you write:

They want to so desperately believe...

and

...Or, just what audiophiles do, turn on and compare?

...it doesn't come across as simply being in disagreement with them, but of holding these people in contempt.

The point is, are they hearing something that is real, or an imagined perception that is imaginery? What validity does an imagined difference have? What good is it to anyone else?

But it is of use to others. Doesn't anbodys opinion (on anything) matter to you? Regardless of whether it is factually right or wrong?

I suggest you actually look for...

It's not what you are saying, but the way in which you are saying it. Again, it comes across as contempt for others.

How horrible, that I[or anyone else] would require proof/validation of claims that go beyond the standard audiophile requirements of proof[that are very low, and usually amount to nothing more than "because I used my ears"].

But you do. You commonly ask that people justify their observations with raw data. Yet their observations are just that; observations. They might not carry any weight in your eyes, but for others, they do.

Why does every thread need to be turned into a DBT geekfest...

Mtrycrafts, WmAx, it really does seem like that sometimes. I know both of you are only trying to help. I myself have been a beneficiary of it many times for which I am very gratefull.

...it will be seen that I, almost always, go out of my way in providing high quality, in-depth information.

I can vouch for that. You have helped me out many times in the past, and I would not have it any different.

How can I think highly of opinions that seem to be based on nothing more than speculation?

Trust them! It doesn't matter whether they only thought they heard something that wasn't there at all. For them, it did exist. It was part of their reality. I'd bet any money that even though these same people may disagree with passages of text you have written, they don't think any less of you.

Why can't you return the favour?

Unless I am very much mistaken, these people would have no problem with you respectfully disagreeing with their opinions. But when you write what you have, in the way that you have, it comes across as tantamount to calling them liars. That's a big difference. Can you really blame them for getting irate?

I'm absolutely certain I've heard major differences in the sound that comes from different players.

As have I. I bought a Yamaha S2500 universal player recently. I use the same coaxial cable from the player to the DSP-Z9 that I did from my previous Musical Fidelity CD player. In each case, I know I am using the player only as a transport. I know that I should't hear a difference. But I simply cannot escape the fact that I can.

Dubya says: "I have a record in office, as well. And all Americans have seen that record. September the 4th, 2001, I stood in the ruins of the Twin Towers. It's a day I will never forget."
-- And again he has trouble with the space-time continuum, Marlton, New Jersey, Oct. 18, 2004

Now that's funny. (even though it's quite appalling at the same time).

Regards (to all); Lets all agree to respectfully disagree.

 

[sts9fan]

I have not heard my player but when I got my 4060 in the mail I wanted to compare it to my Yammy universal player. All I can say is that even my girlfriend who hates all the stereo equiptment and definitly had no clue which was THOUGHT to be better said the $350 Yammie had tons better bass. Was she hearing things or did she have preconcived notions?

 

[Rob Babcock]

I'm not necessarily an "if you can't measure it it doesn't exist" sort of guy, but if you can only hear something you already know is there, then I gotta call BS. To me, measurements are interesting but largely irrelevant. Sound is everything. And if something is really "not subtle" or "night and day" like everyone always claims, then why should it be difficult to hear it blindfolded? It should be obvious, right?

Buy any gear that makes you happy, but realize sound quality isn't always why you're doing it.

 

[j_garcia]

I have not heard my player but when I got my 4060 in the mail I wanted to compare it to my Yammy universal player. All I can say is that even my girlfriend who hates all the stereo equiptment and definitly had no clue which was THOUGHT to be better said the $350 Yammie had tons better bass. Was she hearing things or did she have preconcived notions?

I actually usually use people who are admittedly NOT audiophiles, nor are they even interested in audio gear or music much for that matter, what they think of various changes in my system. I have verified my own impressions time and again this way. Not once have I found it necessary to ask WHY it sounded better or different, just that it did and someone else heard something similar. Sometimes I would not even tell them something had changed (or had not) and asked if they heard any differences. I was surprised at how often people could identify when something had been changed without knowing what it was.

Absolutely. The problem here is of mutual respect, or rather, a lack of it.

Thanks. As often seems the case in a discussion like this, it ends up feeling like a witch hunt or "holier than thou" situation. My beef is that it tends to be that the witch hunters almost always are not even OPEN to the concept that something other than their position could even be partially true. I, myself, am an "IS or IS NOT" person for the most part, and I've also been in engineering for the last 12yrs, so data, validation and proof are what my job is all about, but I am at least willing to listen to someone else's position and consider that there may be something valid there.

There are plenty of things we cannot measure or explain, but we cannot deny they exist. So why is it so hard to believe that some parts of audio might be that way. Maybe we don't have the ability to define what it is that truly characterizes what are often very subtle differences, but that does not mean it does not exist.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hey everyone, just chill for a moment and stop trying to kill the other guy.

Let's look at this logically:

Chris - you've posted many links in many threads to studies showing that the levels of artifacts such as jitter and distortion in modern players are well below audible human thresholds. OK, this is pretty convincing and hard to argue against.

j_garcia, Sleestack - I agree. I'm absolutely certain I've heard major differences in the sound that comes from different players. Whilst the tests haven't been blind I have performed a few tests where I didn't know the supposed relative qualities of players, so I at least had a minimum of expectation.

So, what are we left with?

Well, if you listen to two players, and prefer one, and it's within your budget then buy it and enjoy it.

If you're interested in the science, and/or don't want to spend more money than necessary, then look at the numbers.

A DBT really isn't that practical for most, so how can we quantitively show differences between players? I was thinking of making a CDR with a 20-20k sweep, and measuring the frequency response and distortion from various CD and DVD player's analog output stages.

The crux here is:

1. Can we settle on some reference sound file - e.g. a 20-20k sweep at some dB level over x seconds?
2. Chris, mtrycrafts would you agree that this is a valid measurement?
3. Sleestack, you have multiple players, would you agree to perform some tests? I guess you'd just need a PC and a copy of the RightMark Audio Analyzer (http://rightmark.org).

Alternatively, I'll supply you guys with big sticks, and you can hit one another repeatedly for our entertainment. Just make sure you video it .

I am not sure where you intend to measure and with what? Not at the speakers. If you can measure the outout frequency response of the CD player, analog in this case, that would be fine to see how flat the response, what variations are at what frequency.
Better use a calibrated CD of a known level and porbably measure the ouput voltage too of the player. But, you get FR data in Sound &Video, maybe even in Stereopile too They tend to measure pretty well.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

they compared a RCA, $80 unit against several $1000+ units, DBT, 20 trials, young listeners. Best guess was 12 of 20, not very promising

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually, we need to organize a group of people who were blind at birth, do a hearing assessment of them, then select from that group the 10 people who have the best range of hearing, and use them to do the listening. Music cannot be used, because music doesn't matter, only numbers, so only sweeps and pink noise will be used to conduct the testing.



Hello, people don't all hear the same. What comes into your ear is the actual sound, that may be slightly modified by the particular person's overall hearing ability. Some people have a sensitivity to certain frequencies, while others may be unable to hear specific frequencies well. On top of that, what your brain processes of that signal is a perception, which means ALL HEARING is a perception, influenced by an individual's predisposition for listening for certain characteristics.

You are missing the whole issue here, sorry. Research with blind people didn't pan out that well.

Yes, we don't hear all the same, but JND data is compiled with many people and the lowest or best performers are known. CD players tend to be below threshold of ditecting such differences.
A non DBT listeing will not produce reliable results, no matter what you think you did to help.
Perception is not hearing. Have you not asked anyone in your life to repeat something you didn't understand just to be told, they didn't say anything?
That is perception, your brain making things up. Happens all the time.

What comes into your ear is the sound. But, not everything you perceive in your brain as sound in reality coming into your ear. That is perception. Knowing the real sound and a perception of sound is what you have to isolate in a credible manner. You can only do this with bias controlled protocols. Sorry.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think the point mtrycrafts was making (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong ) was about our perceptions between two pieces of kit being coloured because we know we're hearing different pieces of kit.

I have absolutely no doubt that what exactly we hear (perceive) is different from person to person, so I suppose it's valid that different people would perceive different sounding players in different ways. However, given two players which should sound the same (by the mtrycrafts/WmAx argument) nobody (regardless of 'how' they hear) should be able to tell the difference in a DBT. Of course, different people may have differing perceptions based on how shiny the buttons are on the front panel, but we're all human.

Perception is what the brain is telling you about sound whether that sound is real or not at all present. Separating reality, real sound, from a possible imagined perception, is the key to differentiating components, in this exercise.

DBt is to eliminate any human bias, just as in a drug trial, or any other testing using human subjects
If by chance one can differentiat two playes under a credible DBT, and perhaps duplicated, then we can say that they are audibly different.
So, we really don't care if they are different, if the difference is real, from credible testing, not through biased sighted results

And, one can prefer anything they like.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So why did I think the Cyrus sounded better? Hopefully a frequency response/distortion measurement would be enlightening.

Yes, that would tell us something, unless the difference is below known thresholds

How was the level difference between the players? That affects perception too.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What I gather form your encompassing post is to trust everything no matter what?

Why would I trust, believe, accept an opinion of dubious value?
If I have doubts, I cross check it, if it matters to me.
Perhaps we should accept reports of alien abductions because people did experience them?
How about Sylvia Browns psychic reading? They are very real to the recepient?
That is the problem in this country, believe everything, question nothing. But then, nothing has value- Carl Sagan in a speach(paraphrased)

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have not heard my player but when I got my 4060 in the mail I wanted to compare it to my Yammy universal player. All I can say is that even my girlfriend who hates all the stereo equiptment and definitly had no clue which was THOUGHT to be better said the $350 Yammie had tons better bass. Was she hearing things or did she have preconcived notions?

There are many other reasonable expanations for what she told you. She knows you are looking for differences and she gladly agreed. she is human and biased like all of us. She had a 50% chance of telling you what you wanted to hear. How do you or she knows for sure?

You know, when I stick a pipe in water, it bends. I bet she will see that bend as well. Do I trust my eyes?

But, can either of you differentiate them under bias controls, levels closely matched in a statistically significant manner? That is the real issue, not what she tells you without any controls.

I wonder then, if you use homeopathic medicines? Why not if you don't and why if you do? No difference, really.

So, in essence, this testimonial has no real value to establish audible differences.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I actually usually use people who are admittedly NOT audiophiles, nor are they even interested in audio gear or music much for that matter, what they think of various changes in my system. I have verified my own impressions time and again this way. Not once have I found it necessary to ask WHY it sounded better or different, just that it did and someone else heard something similar. Sometimes I would not even tell them something had changed (or had not) and asked if they heard any differences. I was surprised at how often people could identify when something had been changed without knowing what it was.
.

But you are still not getting valid answers, just unreliable ones. People are biased, no matter what, how much they know about audio or anything else.
No exemtions anywhere, no free lunch. No real answers if sighted comparison. Them are the fact, indisputable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I
There are plenty of things we cannot measure or explain, but we cannot deny they exist. So why is it so hard to believe that some parts of audio might be that way. Maybe we don't have the ability to define what it is that truly characterizes what are often very subtle differences, but that does not mean it does not exist.

Easy, because it is not that way in audio. Perhaps you need to read the new poster, MrQ, an acoustic engineer, in steam vent I think.

Subtle differences can be tested for by your hearing ability. But, you just don't seem to accept the FACT that humans are biased and cannot get valid, meaningful data, results unless the bias is controlled for. Human psychology.
If you want to know if a drug really works better than a sugar pill, you do a DBT. If Paradigm wants to know if that latest design change made a difference, they conduct a DBT listening. they do have that facility, yes.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My beef is that it tends to be that the witch hunters almost always are not even OPEN to the concept that something other than their position could even be partially true. I, myself, am an "IS or IS NOT" person for the most part, and I've also been in engineering for the last 12yrs, so data, validation and proof are what my job is all about, but I am at least willing to listen to someone else's position and consider that there may be something valid there.

How can you be open to a flawed protocol, that being data gathered from biased listening in this case?
what is there to entertain?
We are after answers, and this issue is nothing new, not cutting edge examination of ideas and issues but been examined for 30+ years and psychoacoustics been studied for over 100 year for sure.
With your background, I expect you to be the last one to accept anecdotes and testimonials as factual and reliable. Or, does this hobby gives a free pass on it?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Buy any gear that makes you happy, but realize sound quality isn't always why you're doing it.

You hit it squarely on the head

 

[mtrycrafts]

"Please explain what, between a $100 player vs. the $500[no, go ahead and make that $15,000] player is going to differentiate the sound in an audible manner"

How about mass? Quality of build and components? You do you believe that the componets in a $100 player and a $1000 player are the same? Also I would never assume that a product is better due to price without doing research and listening. Also what about reliability? Is the motor in the $100 as good? Is the board manufactured as carefully?

What do you use as a cd player just for reference? I just finished modding my Toshiba 4060 and yes I can hear the difference.

Mass in a CD player affecting sound? Serious?

Built and component issues will be reflected on the specs but what is there to IC boards?
Reliablility by makers can be found at Consumer Reports

Maybe your modding really affected the specs to a high level of detection

 

[jaxvon]

I think mass would be a part of many things. A bigger power supply, more regulation circuits, heavy duty transport mechanism to eliminate any skipping, thick metal chassis, etc.

Also keep in mind that, like Sleestack said, there can be a big difference in analog stages. Heck, I would venture to say there would be a measureable and audible difference in a CD player made in the traditional fasion and one built like the RE Designs SCPA-1 preamp (point to point wiring, coax in signal path). A poorly built analog section will have line noise, poor stereo separation, audible crosstalk, etc.