Dayton RSS315HF-4 or 390HF-4?

[wormraper]

two dayton 15s in some sonotubes should work pretty nicely. tune them at about 15hz imo, and feed them about 200w each.

remember which Dayton you're getting though in a sonosub. the HF series has too much sag to be in a downfiring position. the Titanic MK III would be the one recommended for Down firing (unless you want to downgrade to the DVC)

 

[jinjuku]

Holy moly! That's unreal! However, I don't know if they ship to Canada. If they do, I'm sure it would cost more like $400 before it gets to my door...

Let me know if you want me to keep an eye out for some used QSC/Crown amplification.

Can always ship it to you and declare it at what ever value...

 

[GO-NAD!]

a conventional MDF enclosure for a large (well damped) low tuned ported box with proper bracing would require a forklift to move! what sonotube offers is a rigid enclosure which is light enough to be usable. you could maybe use bamboo or plywood to make it lighter but would still need two people and cost goes up. big boxes are worthwhile but you need to factor in weight which is why sonotube is great.

Ahhhh, good point. I suppose I should clarify my wants/needs. I don't need to shake my foundation, if I can get a -3 dB point at 20 Hz - I'd be quite happy with that. That's why I mentioned the Dayton drivers. The modeling that TLS did for both looks quite good to me.

Now I really don't know which way to lean....

 

[GranteedEV]

I would look at the Tempest X from Diycable.com it's ~$300 shipped and in a 24.75 X 24.75 X 24.75 box with some window bracing it will dig down to about 108dB in room at 20Hz with no EQ at 100 watts. It will be 6dB down at 10Hz.

Add a second sub and you are at 111db in room typical. Not bad for a simple build.

Now obviously the ported versions will have more output near the port tuning. But nothing a quality amp and some EQ can't take care of in a sealed enclosure.

careful about in room guesstimates here, especially with sealed subs. but yes a pair of tempests would royally wipe the floor with a pair of daytons... you truly get what you pay for.

i still reccommend going ported if the room is sufficiently large. sonotubes apso maie nice 8 and 10 inch cylinder ports btw.

 

[GranteedEV]

Ahhhh, good point. I suppose I should clarify my wants/needs. I don't need to shake my foundation, if I can get a -3 dB point at 20 Hz - I'd be quite happy with that. That's why I mentioned the Dayton drivers. The modeling that TLS did for both looks quite good to me.

Now I really don't know which way to lean....

tuning low is less about subsonics and more about finding flat in room response above 20hz. the subsonics are just a bonus. what happens is that by bringing tuning below audible frequencies you take away some of the SQ issues of ported boxes... same with the large box. at the end of the day try doing everything with respect to the room. the daytons are a nice choice dollar for dollar although the tempests will be more capable and take advanage of more power.

 

[GO-NAD!]

tuning low is less about subsonics and more about finding flat in room response above 20hz. the subsonics are just a bonus. what happens is that by bringing tuning below audible frequencies you take away some of the SQ issues of ported boxes... same with the large box. at the end of the day try doing everything with respect to the room. the daytons are a nice choice dollar for dollar although the tempests will be more capable and take advanage of more power.

I don't doubt that the Tempest would wipe the floor with the Dayton. But, I'm pretty sure the Dayton would wipe the floor with both of my present subs. The room is on the largish side, I suppose - about 2500 ft^3 and the stairwell going upstairs is open. So there is significant volume to pressurize.

 

[GO-NAD!]

remember which Dayton you're getting though in a sonosub. the HF series has too much sag to be in a downfiring position. the Titanic MK III would be the one recommended for Down firing (unless you want to downgrade to the DVC)

Hmmm, I already have a pair of RSS265HF's in a downfiring configuration. They seem to be working just fine. That said, I never compared down-firing with side-firing, so I don't know if there would be an audible difference. Thanks for the info.

 

[GranteedEV]

Hmmm, I already have a pair of RSS265HF's in a downfiring configuration. They seem to be working just fine. That said, I never compared down-firing with side-firing, so I don't know if there would be an audible difference. Thanks for the info.

There is a very helpful application for designing sonosubs. It will compare complianse etc to determine if sag factor is appropriate, as well as a few other things.

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/sonosub.htm

The main thing with downfiring is the effect of gravity on the motor. The downwards stroke is going to be easier than the upwards stroke. It depends on the driver if it's suitable. Otherwise it really should not affect sound quality if you have appropriate clearance. bass frequencies are going to be omnidirectional plain and simple.

Holy moly! That's unreal! However, I don't know if they ship to Canada. If they do, I'm sure it would cost more like $400 before it gets to my door...

Exodus does ship to Canada. I've had their 18" driver shipped to Calgary. But if using UPS ground you absolutely must do a self-clear at customs otherwise UPS will hit you hard with mystery fees. If you can swing for a pair of tempests I do highly recommend it but I completely understand that it is somewhat expensive.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The main thing with downfiring is the effect of gravity on the motor. The downwards stroke is going to be easier than the upwards stroke. It depends on the driver if it's suitable. Otherwise it really should not affect sound quality if you have appropriate clearance. bass frequencies are going to be omnidirectional plain and simple.

I figured it was a gravity thing. Does suitability hinge on maintaining linearity, or is it a durability issue?

 

[GranteedEV]

I figured it was a gravity thing. Does suitability hinge on maintaining linearity, or is it a durability issue?

It's probably both to an extent.

Dan Wiggins, of what formerly used to be Adire Audio does have an article:

www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/DriverOrientation.pdf

Another option may wish to consider is rythmik 15" servo DIY. That should maximize sound quality and as the review of the commercial sub showed, give you plenty of output

 

[GO-NAD!]

There is a very helpful application for designing sonosubs. It will compare complianse etc to determine if sag factor is appropriate, as well as a few other things.

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/sonosub.htm

The main thing with downfiring is the effect of gravity on the motor. The downwards stroke is going to be easier than the upwards stroke. It depends on the driver if it's suitable. Otherwise it really should not affect sound quality if you have appropriate clearance. bass frequencies are going to be omnidirectional plain and simple.



Exodus does ship to Canada. I've had their 18" driver shipped to Calgary. But if using UPS ground you absolutely must do a self-clear at customs otherwise UPS will hit you hard with mystery fees. If you can swing for a pair of tempests I do highly recommend it but I completely understand that it is somewhat expensive.

I just ran the numbers for the 265, 315 and 390. Looks like the first 2 are fine, but the 390 has a sag factor of 5.4%.

 

[jinjuku]

careful about in room guesstimates here, especially with sealed subs.

That is why I said typical...

 

[GranteedEV]

That is why I said typical...

i just wanted to clarify so as not to create a specific expectation. only anechoic results should truly be 'expected' and even then only at 1m. you can estimate in room results sometimes but never perfectly. thats what make passive radiators nice in that you can get flat in room response by playing around.

 

[annunaki]

Hmmm, I already have a pair of RSS265HF's in a downfiring configuration. They seem to be working just fine. That said, I never compared down-firing with side-firing, so I don't know if there would be an audible difference. Thanks for the info.

Sag was calculated as within tolerable limits with these specific drivers for this application so no worry is needed here.

 

[annunaki]

I would look at the Tempest X from Diycable.com it's ~$300 shipped and in a 24.75 X 24.75 X 24.75 box with some window bracing it will dig down to about 108dB in room at 20Hz with no EQ at 100 watts. It will be 6dB down at 10Hz.

Add a second sub and you are at 111db in room typical. Not bad for a simple build.

Now obviously the ported versions will have more output near the port tuning. But nothing a quality amp and some EQ can't take care of in a sealed enclosure.

What are you using to model this response? Was this simulated anechoic?

This does not at all match with the models I have completed on this driver??

Bumping up the suggested sealed enclosure you listed by 2.0ft^3 and going vented changes things dramatically.



GO-NAD!:
A 10.0ft^3 net vented enclosure with the Tempest allows for anechoic response with the lower and upper -1db points at 20hz and 63hz respectively. The lower and upper -3db points occur at about 18hz and 83hz respectively. In other words very linear response. This is also assumed at 500 watts rms input power yielding 114.9db output over most of the entire range.

Internal Dimensions of 20.5" x 28.5" X 36" would allow enough displacement for the 3.25" X 18" X 39.5" slot vent and .5 ft^3 for bracing & the driver.

One key thing to keep in mind is that if you went this route you would not want to use more than 500 watts rms as the vent with the above enclosure and the stated power level is rated at 16m/s vent velocity. Increasing input power to the full rated 1000 watts rms would push vent velocity to 22m/s which would begin to compress some but would probably be fine for most music listening.



Now here is something pretty cool. The Dayton RSS390HF-4 (15") models nearly identical to the Tempest in the exact same enclosure dimensions with but at about 2db less output across the same range. The reason the output is lower is that you will not want to exceed 300 watts rms input power to keep xmax in check.

Either route will work very well for most rooms. For around $320.00 you could do two Dayton drivers vs. one Tempest but you don't have any additional "headroom" so to speak with them (assumes you have space for two) With either the Tempest or Dayton playing at 100db I doubt most anyone would ever be able to tell the difference.

The Tempest gives you a larger performance envelope but the cost is quite a bit more. Tough call...

 

[GO-NAD!]

What are you using to model this response? Was this simulated anechoic?

This does not at all match with the models I have completed on this driver??

Bumping up the suggested sealed enclosure you listed by 2.0ft^3 and going vented changes things dramatically.



GO-NAD!:
A 10.0ft^3 net vented enclosure with the Tempest allows for anechoic response with the lower and upper -1db points at 20hz and 63hz respectively. The lower and upper -3db points occur at about 18hz and 83hz respectively. In other words very linear response. This is also assumed at 500 watts rms input power yielding 114.9db output over most of the entire range.

Internal Dimensions of 20.5" x 28.5" X 36" would allow enough displacement for the 3.25" X 18" X 39.5" slot vent and .5 ft^3 for bracing & the driver.

One key thing to keep in mind is that if you went this route you would not want to use more than 500 watts rms as the vent with the above enclosure and the stated power level is rated at 16m/s vent velocity. Increasing input power to the full rated 1000 watts rms would push vent velocity to 22m/s which would begin to compress some but would probably be fine for most music listening.



Now here is something pretty cool. The Dayton RSS390HF-4 (15") models nearly identical to the Tempest in the exact same enclosure dimensions with but at about 2db less output across the same range. The reason the output is lower is that you will not want to exceed 300 watts rms input power to keep xmax in check.

Either route will work very well for most rooms. For around $320.00 you could do two Dayton drivers vs. one Tempest but you don't have any additional "headroom" so to speak with them (assumes you have space for two) With either the Tempest or Dayton playing at 100db I doubt most anyone would ever be able to tell the difference.

The Tempest gives you a larger performance envelope but the cost is quite a bit more. Tough call...

I was wondering when you might chip in on this discussion!

As attractive as the Tempest is, it doesn't appear to offer twice the performance for twice the price. I know, it's the law of diminishing returns - after you reach a certain level of performance, the cost of greater performance increases exponentially. I know most AHers are all about the overkill, but I highly doubt that I'll need the extra capabilities of that driver.

I modeled both the 315 and the 390 in WinISD last night and the difference between those 2 drivers isn't dramatic either. But, for an extra $20, the difference in performance would be worth the price difference. I just need to calculate the weight of an enclosure for the 390, because I will need to muscle it behind the false wall - I'd get help of course. I'm not Pdawg, after all. I could go with plywood, of course, and save some weight there. It looks like the 390 wouldn't be suitable for a sonosub, as the sag looks to be to high. Plus, it could be no more than 20" deep, as the space between the false wall and the front wall is only 22".

 

[annunaki]

From a value perspective, having some idea of your goal and your listening habits, I think the 390 would be suitable for your application. Large enclosure yes, but great LF performance and output. Two of them would be even more impressive.

What size is your room that you are working with here? Also have you tested any of your current subs in that location to see what they are capable of?

If you first ground plane test your current sub(s) to see where they perform at 20hz, then try them in that location and compare data you can see if there is a null in that location too.

 

[GO-NAD!]

From a value perspective, having some idea of your goal and your listening habit,s I think the 390 would be suitable for your application. Large enclosure yes, but great LF performance and output. TWo of them would be even more impressive.

What size is your room that you are working with here? Also have you tested any of your current subs in that location to see what they are capable of?

If you first ground plane test your current sub(s) to see where they perform at 20hz, then try them in that location and compare data you can see if there is a null in that location too.

From my original post:

After finishing my projector project, I decided to do some subwoofer testing. I added my Reel Acoustics RSW1215 to the DPS-12 and placed them on the front wall at 1/4 distance from the sidewalls to hopefully even out the FR. I hadn't done any testing of my HT subwoofers before so I had no real expectations. Well, the placement appears to be good and there don't seem to be any phase issues with the different subs, because the FR was almost flat, from 80 Hz, down to 40 Hz. However, the response drops like a rock below 40: -10 dB at 31.5 Hz and -18 at 25 Hz! I knew I wasn't going to be impressed, but that's depressing!

The room is about 2500ft^3, but there is an open stairwell leading upstairs as well. You can see the layout in my "Bluenose Theatre" thread. The room is only 10' 7" wide.

I won't be doing any ground plain testing for a while - there's 2 feet of snow on my front lawn...

 

[annunaki]

You could get by with 1 sub in that size of room, but two of them would increase the headroom you have as well as pressurize the room a bit better.

I did forget that you are in the Great White North. I cannot do a ground plane at this time either, I have the same problem.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You could get by with 1 sub in that size of room, but two of them would increase the headroom you have as well as pressurize the room a bit better.

I did forget that you are in the Great White North. I cannot do a ground plane at this time either, I have the same problem.

I probably could get by with one, but as you say, two would offer more headroom. However, my primary motivation is to even out the FR with both subs at 1/4 distance from the sidewalls. I like the idea of symmetry as well...