"Dangers" of Online retailers ?

ehead

ehead

Enthusiast
I was reading about the yamaha HTR-5860 on this forum, and after seeing the price quoted by a couple of people, decided this was definitely for me.

Then I started googling around and noticed most online stores sell this unit for a whopping $180 MORE than what was mentioned in the thread.

Then I noticed others talking about "gray" dealers, whatever that is, and noticed a couple of the cheaper online sellers warn about the manufacturers warranty not being valid ... and my suspicion/paranoia sort of got piqued.

Just how can one online store sell a $500 unit for $320 ?

Is there any real danger in buying from an "unauthorized" dealer ?

One poster pointed me to the yamaha site and said to be sure to buy from an authorized dealer ... well, ALL the authorized dealers, curiously enough, have it for the exact same price of $500 ... hmmm.
 
Francious70

Francious70

Senior Audioholic
The danger is that if your unit breaks (hehe, unit) you have no manufacturers warrenty. For some, this isn't a problem and if the unit breaks, they just buy a new one.

And the price thing. When you sell in high volumes, you can afford to cut the price back to a little above what you pay for it.
 
ehead

ehead

Enthusiast
Well oddly, some of the stores that had it for $340 or so claim to have a warrenty.

I was thinking about more insidious things ... like them selling refurb units as new, etc ...

I wonder how yamaha can even tell where you purchased the unit from ?

This is probably just me being paranoid. I've been buying stuff online for years.

Usually though, you see stuff closer in price than this. If Amazon has something for $500, it's rare to find it somewhere else for $320. Maybe audio equipment is just different though.

-----

Ahhh ... as an adendum, it appears what is going on is these "unauthorized" dealers are supplying their own warrenty that is equivalent to Yamahas. Also, just as a note, it doesn't say Yamaha WILL refuse to honor a warrenty, it simply says they are under no obligation to.
 
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Francious70

Francious70

Senior Audioholic
Which means that they won't fix it, unless you pay the repair fee.

And yes, audio prices are all over the page.
 
D

DaveOCP

Audioholic
"I wonder how yamaha can even tell where you purchased the unit from ?"

If the serial number has been tampered with or removed, they will not cover it.

I prefer to buy electronics on ebay rather than "blahshometheater.com" or one of the hundreds of websites like that. Paypal is a lot safer than just giving all of your credit information to some website you've never heard of, and if somebody has 15,000 feedbacks and 99.5% positive feedback, chances are you are not going to get screwed.
 
Snap

Snap

Audioholic
Yamaha

"The Authorized Places all have the same price"

That is the SURE FIRE way to tell if they are "authorized" dealers. Yamaha has very stick guidlines for there dealers and reps. If you "advertise" below MAP you LOOSE the line, end of story!

I would DEFINATLY worry about a store that is selling a 500 Receiver for hundreds of bucks less. Even with Big volume discounts, the margins are NOT that much different. (not in the hundreds any ways) The only time that HUGE discounts are a factor is when the store is trying to clear out their stock. Like if an AV store had a boat load of AVR-3805 and were trying to make room for the 3806 stuff.

I am all about saving some money, but I would rather spend a few more bucks at the local AV place to keep them open so that I can get, Support, Listen to new gear etc. Than to take a chance and buy from some on line place.

Personal Note: It some times makes me mad when people spend hours checking out gear, looking, getting advise from a AV store, and then going out and buying it on line just to save a few bucks. Pretty soon there might not be a place for you to check out all that new gear other than BB and CC!
 
9

9f9c7z

Banned
Snap said:
I would DEFINATLY worry about a store that is selling a 500 Receiver for hundreds of bucks less.
I wouldn't worry about it. Except maybe for the esoteric brands, your well known brand names have a huge markup at the retail level. An “authorized” Denon retailer can selling a $1500 DVD playr, A-stock, for about $1000, including shipping to your front door. They wouldn’t be knocking $500 off the price if they weren’t making a fair profit. That gives you an idea of how much over-priced Denon equipment is. Same for Yamaha, Marantz, etc.

It some times makes me mad when people spend hours checking out gear, looking, getting advise from a AV store, and then going out and buying it on line just to save a few bucks. Pretty soon there might not be a place for you to check out all that new gear other than BB and CC!
To put it another way, you could shop for the best price, reward the seller offering the lowest price by purchasing from them, then go back and give your local retailer cash for the difference between what you spent and what you would have spent if you bought locally. That should make everybody happy.
:rolleyes:

We have been over this before, California does NOT permit a manf to limit warranty coverage based on location of purchase. Any electronics purchased from a California seller has the warranty intact, regardless of what the manf would like you to believe. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the manf is going to honor their obligation, so you should think about how much of a fight you are willing to go thru, should the need arise, and you bought from unauthorized dealer.

Black market refers to items that are sold and are contraband. It is stuff that is illegal to sell.

Gray market refers to items that are intended to be sold but are not contraband if they are sold. They are stuff intended for sell in a country other than the country they are being sold in, like all those really cheap Panasonic plasma displays you can find for sell online (see www.lcdtv.com). Gray market items are not necessarily covered by warranty, and they shouldn’t be.

Items that are intended for sell in a country but sold by unauthorized dealers are just cheaper stuff. They are not [insert color] market items. In the United States, in the interest of protecting the consumer from price gouging, a manf is prohibited from controlling the retail distribution of their product. An authorized dealer can sell product to an unauthorized dealer, who can in turn sell it to the consumer. Furthermore, a manf cannot set minimum prices for their products.

Fair Trade Laws in the United States, a former group of statutes that permitted manufacturers to specify the minimum retail price of a commodity. The first fair-trade law was adopted (1931) by California. Intended to protect independent retailers from the price-cutting competition of large chain stores, such statutes were originally nullified by the courts, which found most fair-trade rules in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act . As a result, Congress passed (1937) the Miller-Tydings Act in order to exempt fair trade from antitrust legislation. In the late 1950s, however, many manufacturers began to abandon the practice of setting minimum retail prices, largely because of the difficulties involved in enforcing such agreements. With the post-World War II rise of bargain outlets for a wide range of consumer products, fair-trade laws became increasingly unpopular and were repealed in many jurisdictions. In 1975, federal legislation eliminated the remaining fair-trade laws.

The fair trade laws (actually, anti-fair trade laws) do not specify a means, just the end. In this case, the ‘end’ refers to having the item + warranty sold at a minimum price, a.k.a. M.A.P. If the manf does anything to interfere with the seller’s ability to price the products as they please, the manf is in violation of federal law(s), federal anti-trust law(s), and probably state law(s) as well. Obviously, it hasn’t stop the manfs.
 
T

thxgoon

Junior Audioholic
Snap said:
I am all about saving some money, but I would rather spend a few more bucks at the local AV place to keep them open so that I can get, Support, Listen to new gear etc. Than to take a chance and buy from some on line place.
I agree. It costs money for them to purchase the product for display, pay the electric bill to turn it on and pay the employees to answer your questions and show you how to hook it up. I too am all about saving a buck or two, but the internet market for AV gear saddens me. It truthfully looks like a lack of passion from the consumer in what they are spending thousands of dollars on. Instead of listening and comparing, they are reading stats and looking for deals. The retailers are there for a reason and it's worth the extra cost. Especially if you need help with your system in the future. My 2 cents.
 
ehead

ehead

Enthusiast
I wholeheartedly agree with everyone !

I have often bought items from a local store even if they were a little bit more, if I found them helpful. Beyond just the internet, there are the Walmarts and the Best Buys, which buy in such bulk it is impossible for mom and pop stores to compete.

But, this idea has to be balanced with my limited sized bank account, as well.
:)

I surely won't let 20 bucks, or even 30 or 40 bucks cause me to drive down the street, but thanks to the internet it looks like I will be able to afford a receiver far outside of my class ... and that is just awfully tempting.
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
Just ask yamaha

First,
the manufacturer usualy maintains a list of B&M and online autorized dealers. If you do not see a retailer on the list, simply email Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) to inquire about your potential purchase. This is what I did to verify that Electronics Expo is an authorized dealer and my purchase would have a valid warantee. The unit was new unopened and double boxed for safe shipping.

If you want to pay retail, than just buy the Yamaha receiver at Circuit City or Best Buy. The additional money you spent is paying for their courtous and helpful (lol) sales staff and the showroom floor. If you would like to save a few bucks, than an autorized online dealer is a good option.

P.S. The HTR-5860 retails for $549 + tax and I bought mine for $325 shipped.
 
trevorgray

trevorgray

Audioholic Intern
For me, there has always been an advantage of buying locally and that is instant gratification. I get to take the unit home with me and I don't have to worry about damage during shipping or having it get home and realize that it wasn't a new item (even though it was described as New or Unopened). And don't even ask an e-tailer if it is B-Stock.

I searched and searched for my Yamaha 2500 both on-line and off-line. Yes, I could find it cheaper on-line but by the time I added in shipping and a MAC warranty it wasn't that much of a difference. I ended up negotiating about 10% off with my local vendor and everybody was happy (this isn't something that you will be able to do with a Best Buy or Circuit City). Also, I get to keep the money locally and help local businesses as well as a local salesman. The next time I go to deal with the guy he will be helpful in answering my questions as well as thoughtful in helping me with any future "deals" that he may have.

Don't get me wrong, I do buy a lot of stuff through the internet, and e-bay as well, but when it comes to something like electronics I don't feel comfortable with spending large amounts of money for something that I don't know its past.
 
R

Rich0372

Enthusiast
thxgoon said:
I agree. It costs money for them to purchase the product for display, pay the electric bill to turn it on and pay the employees to answer your questions and show you how to hook it up. I too am all about saving a buck or two, but the internet market for AV gear saddens me. It truthfully looks like a lack of passion from the consumer in what they are spending thousands of dollars on. Instead of listening and comparing, they are reading stats and looking for deals. The retailers are there for a reason and it's worth the extra cost. Especially if you need help with your system in the future. My 2 cents.
The one thing the internet helps with is when there's not a local dealer in your area so your not limited to the few local dealers and the products they sell. Also it keeps your local dealer honest I mean come on this stuff is marked up WAY to much so if they want the sale they should offer some reasonable discount (at least 10-20%). Don't get me wrong I would rather buy from a local dealer and would gladly pay a little more for there service they provide me but, if I'm gonna save $500 or more than I believe the dealer is taking advantage just my 2 cents Rich
 
T

thxgoon

Junior Audioholic
Rich0372 said:
The one thing the internet helps with is when there's not a local dealer in your area so your not limited to the few local dealers and the products they sell. Also it keeps your local dealer honest I mean come on this stuff is marked up WAY to much so if they want the sale they should offer some reasonable discount (at least 10-20%). Don't get me wrong I would rather buy from a local dealer and would gladly pay a little more for there service they provide me but, if I'm gonna save $500 or more than I believe the dealer is taking advantage just my 2 cents Rich
One thing people often forget is that it is the manufacturers who set the MSRP and hence they are the ones that set the margin %. Most retailers that also sell tvs have to keep high margin in their audio products because there really isn't much in tvs, and they are expensive to stock. I don't think MSRP or 10, 20% off is taking advantage of anybody. I think the internet is taking advantage of their lack of overhead to slash prices and right they should. Are the oil companies taking advantage of recent trageties to lighten our wallets? Absolutely. Jerks. Wish I could buy gas on the internet.
 
P

photodyer

Audioholic Intern
The store I'm working with on my new system--Kief's Audio/Video in Lawrence, KS (take a look for details ), addresses the issue by offering "3 prices". That is, you can buy "full service", "discount" or "mail order", and you get support/assistance on par with your choice. An interesting business model . . .
 
QED

QED

Audioholic Intern
As far as I know, manufacturers only set the minimum advertised price.

They're still entitled to discount their products as much as they like.

Unfortunately, you can usually only discover the discounted price by actually driving there.

Not always convenient.

(WOW! three homonyms used & spelled correctly) ;)
 
pikers

pikers

Audioholic
Francious70 said:
The danger is that if your unit breaks (hehe, unit) you have no manufacturers warrenty. For some, this isn't a problem and if the unit breaks, they just buy a new one.

And the price thing. When you sell in high volumes, you can afford to cut the price back to a little above what you pay for it.
I love that argument. If money is that unimportant, you probably don't care what you paid for it to begin with.

The issue is that you have no idea where that unit came from, if it's authentic (this applies to all products, not just dumpy A/V receivers), what stresses the unit has been placed under (failure-prone, etc).

Point is, why bother? If you can't afford something, buy a lower-priced model from a real dealer and sleep in peace. Especially since you probably used a dealer to discover which unit to buy to begin with.
 

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