JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I said visual spectrum, not audible. Because I was referring to
Not related to audio so irellevent.

I am claiming differences that show up on a scope. I am providing methods by which a person can measure those differences in their own home, rather than come to my home. Sometimes the audio quality is so large it's blatantly obvious. Sometimes it's harder to detect, but I've identified differences and then tried to prove them to myself by looking for (and finding) different traces on a scope.
Did you find them? Can you post the scope results?

I am stating that statistical generalizations due to DBTs of large groups does not necessarily apply to individual DBTs, and provide tetrachromacy as an example of why this may be so.
Sure "no one in the group managed to reliably differentiate equipment" does apply to individuals.

When I refer to smear, I am referring to the blending of one note into another in the time domain. This is separate from harmonic distortion and frequency response measurements.
I cannot imagine how a DAC could do that in any timeframe possibly audiable to a human being.

I don't particularly like straight out refusal to believe research A because of research B though.
They used to research psychic powers.

Research A is always disproven through research B.

No, I don't "believe" in Monster cables. Do I believe a cable can affect the sound? Yes. Why? Because you can easily model an analog filter in terms of R, C, L and the circuit created by your output jack, cable, and input jack can be reduced to such a circuit. What cable do I prefer? Thick, well-insulated, well-shielded copper with low electrical characteristics.
Properly built/sized cable does not have an audiable impact and normal-ranges.

If you were really worried, you'd just use balanced cables and cancel out distortions.

I'm not asking anyone to believe me just because I said so. I've made claims, just like everyone else. When asked to prove my claims, I've asked the skeptics to prove my claims to themselves. I'm being handed the burden of proof. I'm trying to hand it back.
It's the claims that create proof. The claims we are making are amply testing. They have been proven. Your claims have, as far as we can tell, universally failed stringent testing.

The psychic powers comparison is apt. If you can move things with your mind, it's not incumbent upon us to prove you cannot.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Trying to improve the quality of audio beyond human hearing is an enormous waste of time and money. Can a DAC return less errors than another? Sure, but once the recording reaches 16 bits (over 65000 levels) then only at the lowest possible signal levels will some distortion present based on incorrect analog voltage values. Sorry, you can't hear that. I don't care if you invented music, you just can't. It gets even more extreme and even more impossible(?) when you get to 24 bit, etc etc.

Now, that doesnt mean there isn't an explanation for your findings, it just isn't in the DAC.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
The mind fabricates many audible differences in DACs and amplifiers, and the mind only. I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy these things for any reason, but if someone asks a question like the OP did I will tell them straight up the difference is so small in terms of measured performance that the person would not be able to differentiate between them. If I can convince someone to not waste money, especially if they have their doubts already, I will absolutely tell them what is what.

Others have already made up their minds about many of these things. If a friend of mine buys Bose it's not likely I'll bash him for it and tell him he wasted his money, especially if it's what he wanted and had no doubt in his mind that was what he wanted.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm hoping to avoid this degenerating....

I said visual spectrum, not audible. Because I was referring to Tetrachromacy.

I am claiming differences that show up on a scope. I am providing methods by which a person can measure those differences in their own home, rather than come to my home. Sometimes the audio quality is so large it's blatantly obvious. Sometimes it's harder to detect, but I've identified differences and then tried to prove them to myself by looking for (and finding) different traces on a scope.

I am stating that statistical generalizations due to DBTs of large groups does not necessarily apply to individual DBTs, and provide tetrachromacy as an example of why this may be so.

When I refer to smear, I am referring to the blending of one note into another in the time domain. This is separate from harmonic distortion and frequency response measurements.

I wish I could find the research paper again. I thought I downloaded it but I can't find it. Sorry. I know that automatically lessens my credibility (I might be lying) but it's just my word that I'm telling the truth the paper exists. It's just one paper, so it's not the end-all-be-all, but it's the only one I found that tried to differentiate between musicians and non-musicians. I don't particularly like straight out refusal to believe research A because of research B though.

No, I don't "believe" in Monster cables. Do I believe a cable can affect the sound? Yes. Why? Because you can easily model an analog filter in terms of R, C, L and the circuit created by your output jack, cable, and input jack can be reduced to such a circuit. What cable do I prefer? Thick, well-insulated, well-shielded copper with low electrical characteristics.

I'm not asking anyone to believe me just because I said so. I've made claims, just like everyone else. When asked to prove my claims, I've asked the skeptics to prove my claims to themselves. I'm being handed the burden of proof. I'm trying to hand it back.
I did not misunderstood anything you claimed so far but I thought you knew I was not questioning about the differences you could see on a scope, spectrum analyzer or whatever.... but those demostratable differences may not be audibly discernable by human beings.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm hoping to avoid this degenerating....
Well, it may opr may not happen;):D

I said visual spectrum, not audible. .
Yes, you did,;) but it is a numbers game and there comes a point even in the visual spectrum where no one can differentiate, right? And, just because it is so in the visual that it is automatically the same in aural spectrum, right?
I am claiming differences that show up on a scope.
Ok, but it doesn't mean those are audible differences, right?

I am providing methods by which a person can measure those differences in their own home,
Only if they have the right gear, right? Many/most do not.

Sometimes the audio quality is so large it's blatantly obvious.
Maybe, maybe not. That is a common claim also.

I am stating that statistical generalizations due to DBTs of large groups does not necessarily apply to individual DBTs, and provide tetrachromacy as an example of why this may be so.
Just a probability of what the next person might achieve, no? And, when no one has achieved audibility to this point, the probability is much higher and the demonstration needs to be more credible beyond a personal claim to be so.

When I refer to smear, I am referring to the blending of one note into another in the time domain. This is separate from harmonic distortion and frequency response measurements.
Yes, but again, it is very subjective and needs to be demonstrated to be believed by others, if it is important. It may not be important to do so one way or another.

I wish I could find the research paper again. I thought I downloaded it but I can't find it. Sorry. I know that automatically lessens my credibility (I might be lying) but it's just my word that I'm telling the truth the paper exists.
Well, it would be good to locate it somehow so others can read it and perhaps learn something new, or not, or find the flaws. Who knows. Lying has nothing to do with this.

It's just one paper, so it's not the end-all-be-all, but it's the only one I found that tried to differentiate between musicians and non-musicians. I don't particularly like straight out refusal to believe research A because of research B though.
But, one can judge a paper. It may be good research or filled with flaws that matter to the conclusions.

Do I believe a cable can affect the sound? Yes. Why? Because you can easily model an analog filter in terms of R, C, L and the circuit created by your output jack, cable, and input jack can be reduced to such a circuit. What cable do I prefer? Thick, well-insulated, well-shielded copper with low electrical characteristics.
But then, DBTs would have shown at what point those matter, or not. And, it seems that when the wire is large enough, say 16ga or over, residential runs, not 100s of feet long, it doesn't matter. But, Spock was not tested.;):D

When asked to prove my claims, I've asked the skeptics to prove my claims to themselves. I'm being handed the burden of proof. I'm trying to hand it back.
Oh, but the burden is on the claimant to demonstrate i8n a credible manner, not others. And, based on current data, that is not a simple demonstration;):D
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
I don't have scope pictures to post. I'm not really interested in trying to debate on the forum anymore. It's also quite difficult to try and deal with three different replies to one of my comments at the same time.

I'm not convinced any evidence I provide would get some of the respondents on this thread to change their mind anyway. Which is why I thought providing the means to reproduce my claims would be welcome.

If someone would like to come over and listen or see on the scope for themselves, send me a PM. Bring a DAC?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If someone would like to come over and listen or see on the scope for themselves, send me a PM. Bring a DAC?
I just want to make at least one point clear. I don't think anyone disagree with you on differences that are visible on an instrument, scope or others. I do think people are saying that such visible differences may not be audibly discernable, at least that's what I said in my post.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
I just want to make at least one point clear. I don't think anyone disagree with you on differences that are visible on an instrument, scope or others. I do think people are saying that such visible differences may not be audibly discernable, at least that's what I said in my post.
I completely agree. Its completely possible that the same DAC in the same device doesn't perform the exact same everytime, for any given source material... Even if electronically measurable, NO ONE can hear it.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I just want to make at least one point clear. I don't think anyone disagree with you on differences that are visible on an instrument, scope or others. I do think people are saying that such visible differences may not be audibly discernable, at least that's what I said in my post.
*or* his DAC actually colors sound.

Bashing of cheap parts aside: Bose *does* sound different deliberately as well. They are designed to color the sound coming out to be "better".

If I were making a high-end DAC: one option certainly would be to apply "loudness" to the waveform coming out and most people would find it "better".
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
I just want to make at least one point clear. I don't think anyone disagree with you on differences that are visible on an instrument, scope or others. I do think people are saying that such visible differences may not be audibly discernable, at least that's what I said in my post.
Yeah, I know. :) But I'm saying it's audible when level matched.
 
A

audiotraine

Enthusiast
:DIf the DAC ain't in your component, you will have noise issues. You need to work from there. Each component you add, adds noise. I READ this till my ears burned. BUY a better CD player or a better processor.These are the facts being claimed by "they said".

Seth=L is right. fact jack. You don't need 8 tires on your car--you need better tires.

Internal component DACs decide what it sounds like--ALL convertors should sound exactly the same-if they were doing exactly right. BUY a better CD player or processor OR both.

Knucklehead90 knows 2, but there are better convertors that you can hear the difference--thus he knows 2 little.

The sky is light blue,the sky is dark blue. Who the heck knows the perfect answer--BUY a better CD player. Only when you get to CD/DVD combinations is there any confusion. The scientific chit sounds great (excuse my french) BUY a better CD player. If you are gonna play it loud-- buy mo clean power. Clean always being the first process in all music. Altered music sounds different.

"Unnecessary fad" is a good term---rich people chit. Rich people need more stuff. Another guess-- BUY a better CD player or cleaner power.or maybe better speakers!?!??!!?!

BESIDES... no matter what you do, its not gonna change your speakers. Even with cruddy equipment, good speakers sound good. Cruddy speakers sound better with good equipment. BUY a better CD player or better processor with clean power. In case you didn't catch that--clean power sounds better. Cleaner DACs in a CD player sound better-not outside.

You do not put a super charger in the trailer you pull behind your car. You buy a motor with one already on it.

I love these discussions. What opinions we do have!! thank me,thank me very much. That scientific chit sounds great!

Did you hear the conversation between the CD player and the DAC? The CD player asked the DAC: "What are you doing here? The DAC replied: "I'm fixing your crap, dummy" The CD player: "Well I shouldn't have done it to start with if all you gonna do is fix on it!" @?$^$&!*$(!)@??&%^#@*(!??%^$$$#@!*%I don't care WHO you are-now thats funny! :eek: :D:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, I know. :) But I'm saying it's audible when level matched.
I believe it would be audible if you compare a no name brand 50 cents a pcs DAC to a $5 a pcs Burr Brown or Wolfson DAC. It would not be audible in a properly conducted DBT to compare Burr Brown DACs such as the 1791, 1792, 1796 and comparable Wolfson DACs. So you are right, we are not going to convince each other. My belief is based on my real life experience as well as theorectical knowledge, and my guess is, so do you.....
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I like booze too.....
:DIf the DAC ain't in your component, you will have noise issues. You need to work from there. Each component you add, adds noise. I READ this till my ears burned. BUY a better CD player or a better processor.These are the facts being claimed by "they said".

Seth=L is right. fact jack. You don't need 8 tires on your car--you need better tires.

Internal component DACs decide what it sounds like--ALL convertors should sound exactly the same-if they were doing exactly right. BUY a better CD player or processor OR both.

Knucklehead90 knows 2, but there are better convertors that you can hear the difference--thus he knows 2 little.

The sky is light blue,the sky is dark blue. Who the heck knows the perfect answer--BUY a better CD player. Only when you get to CD/DVD combinations is there any confusion. The scientific chit sounds great (excuse my french) BUY a better CD player. If you are gonna play it loud-- buy mo clean power. Clean always being the first process in all music. Altered music sounds different.

"Unnecessary fad" is a good term---rich people chit. Rich people need more stuff. Another guess-- BUY a better CD player or cleaner power.or maybe better speakers!?!??!!?!

BESIDES... no matter what you do, its not gonna change your speakers. Even with cruddy equipment, good speakers sound good. Cruddy speakers sound better with good equipment. BUY a better CD player or better processor with clean power. In case you didn't catch that--clean power sounds better. Cleaner DACs in a CD player sound better-not outside.

You do not put a super charger in the trailer you pull behind your car. You buy a motor with one already on it.

I love these discussions. What opinions we do have!! thank me,thank me very much. That scientific chit sounds great!

Did you hear the conversation between the CD player and the DAC? The CD player asked the DAC: "What are you doing here? The DAC replied: "I'm fixing your crap, dummy" The CD player: "Well I shouldn't have done it to start with if all you gonna do is fix on it!" @?$^$&!*$(!)@??&%^#@*(!??%^$$$#@!*%I don't care WHO you are-now thats funny! :eek: :D:D
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
:DIf the DAC ain't in your component, you will have noise issues. You need to work from there. Each component you add, adds noise. I READ this till my ears burned. BUY a better CD player or a better processor.These are the facts being claimed by "they said".

Seth=L is right. fact jack. You don't need 8 tires on your car--you need better tires.

Internal component DACs decide what it sounds like--ALL convertors should sound exactly the same-if they were doing exactly right. BUY a better CD player or processor OR both.

Knucklehead90 knows 2, but there are better convertors that you can hear the difference--thus he knows 2 little.

The sky is light blue,the sky is dark blue. Who the heck knows the perfect answer--BUY a better CD player. Only when you get to CD/DVD combinations is there any confusion. The scientific chit sounds great (excuse my french) BUY a better CD player. If you are gonna play it loud-- buy mo clean power. Clean always being the first process in all music. Altered music sounds different.

"Unnecessary fad" is a good term---rich people chit. Rich people need more stuff. Another guess-- BUY a better CD player or cleaner power.or maybe better speakers!?!??!!?!

BESIDES... no matter what you do, its not gonna change your speakers. Even with cruddy equipment, good speakers sound good. Cruddy speakers sound better with good equipment. BUY a better CD player or better processor with clean power. In case you didn't catch that--clean power sounds better. Cleaner DACs in a CD player sound better-not outside.

You do not put a super charger in the trailer you pull behind your car. You buy a motor with one already on it.

I love these discussions. What opinions we do have!! thank me,thank me very much. That scientific chit sounds great!

Did you hear the conversation between the CD player and the DAC? The CD player asked the DAC: "What are you doing here? The DAC replied: "I'm fixing your crap, dummy" The CD player: "Well I shouldn't have done it to start with if all you gonna do is fix on it!" @?$^$&!*$(!)@??&%^#@*(!??%^$$$#@!*%I don't care WHO you are-now thats funny! :eek: :D:D
I felt like there was some subliminal advertising in that post.

MUST BUY NEW CD PLAYER!:eek:
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I feel a keyboard character ban coming *()* :p




edit- pic added
 
Last edited:
A

audiotraine

Enthusiast
I felt like there was some subliminal advertising in that post.

MUST BUY NEW CD PLAYER!:eek:

or processor or speakers..
buy some-thang dangit..thats what he's talking about doing ...right?

HE must put that supercharger in the motor--NOT in a trailer!..... a-b-c-d-e.....

gosh-this was an easy one=== unlike that suped up wire stuff on that steam vent page on whether bi-wiring makes sense or not?!@&%# yeah it'll alter it for better or worse or different or something. Need to just make it real clean==altered sound VS clean sound---less components = less noise " some thang lik dat " :rolleyes:
 
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