DAC pre-amp combo vs seperates. Newb alert.

[AudioSlim]

Hello all!

First of all let me thank you all for contributing to a very useful source of information on the forum. I've been lurking on here reading for a few months and I have learned a lot, so thanks!

I'm somewhat of a stereo newbie, and I'd like to preface my question with a little bit of information regarding my system and how it has evolved. It all started with a friend giving me a set of 15 year old Infinity Reference tower speakers, which had been well used and abused. Having been relying on mp3's for several years, played through a sound-dock (or audioengine a2's), I decided it was time to go back to components for enjoyments sake. I did a little research, and not wanting to spend much money I purchased an Onkyo 8050 stereo receiver. I already had a playstation that I could use as a CD transport, and I had a Synology Diskstation that I could use as a network source. The cheap Onkyo had all the features I needed, including the DAC, to support all my hardware. Analog inputs not needed at this time.

I enjoyed this set-up for a while, but then grew tired of the appearance and sound of the speakers. So I did some research and decided to buy a set of Aperion Grand Verus towers, and two Emotiva UPA-1 mono amplifiers to drive them. I love the speakers and the amps, and I have been using the Onkyo as a preamp to run my system. However I am a little bit disappointed in the overall signal quality. I am assuming that the Onkyo is responsible for this, either the low quality pre-amp stage, or the low quality DAC. I mean for $285, these individual elements just can't be doing what they need to.

So this brings me to my question. I'd like to replace the Onkyo with either a DAC pre amp like the Benchmark DAC HDR, or a combination of Emotiva USP-1 pre-amp and a Peachtree DACit or something similar.

I've been reading a lot on the forums, and I've found differing views as to how the Benchmark unit performs as a pre-amp.

I'd never need more than one analog input. I'd use both the outputs on the Benchmark. I'd use XLR to the amps, and the unbalanced RCA's to the subwoofer I have. Connection-wise, I think I can live with the Benchmark. I'd just use my playstation3 to play cd's, and access my disk-station to stream flacs to the Benchmark. Space-wise, I prefer less gear, so the Benchmark would be just perfect.

Are there thoughts one way or the other? Is there anything that I haven't touched on or considered for my set-up? I'm not an "audiophile," but my ears are telling me that the processing in my system is delivering me a flat uninspired signal with some artifacts in the high midrange low treble areas of the signal. Not knowing which adjective to use I would call it a "crunchiness" to the sound. It's very irritating.

Thanks all who took the time to read my rather long-winded query. I've read almost every DAC thread I can find, but If anybody would like to take the time to pontificate on my system design, I could use some more... experienced opinions.

Thanks!

EDIT:
I'm not attracted to specific brands really... I'm also looking at Wired4Sound DAC2, and the Emotiva XDA-1, and pretty much any other component that would achieve what I demand it to. I must admit that the $2000 price of the Benchmark DAC causes my eyes to water a little bit! I've got some money to play with, but not the deep pockets of some of the members here!

 

[Irvrobinson]

I own an HDR and I'm thrilled with it in a very high-end system. My suggestion: if you buy the HDR directly from Benchmark, and you're not satisfied with the performance, you can just return it for a refund.

 

[jinjuku]

MarkK from Audiohueristics.org:

I stream through the xonar, I stream through the benchmark, meh, most of the time I forget which I'm listening too. Must be the cables...

He knows a thing or two about audio.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I enjoyed this set-up for a while, but then grew tired of the appearance and sound of the speakers. So I did some research and decided to buy a set of Aperion Grand Verus towers, and two Emotiva UPA-1 mono amplifiers to drive them. I love the speakers and the amps, and I have been using the Onkyo as a preamp to run my system. However I am a little bit disappointed in the overall signal quality. I am assuming that the Onkyo is responsible for this, either the low quality pre-amp stage, or the low quality DAC.

Let me stop you right here: Did you mention your source is mp3 files? Have you ever heard expression "crap in, crap out"
Verus are very accurate and revealing speakers. Anything other than CD/FLAC or SACD will sound like crap - and don't blame 8050 for that...

But for sake of argument lets say you tried a quality recorded material and played it thru your ps3 using it as a transport , but you still don't like the sound. Most likely problem is with your room acoustics and you need to address it with room treatments.

New external DAC will not solve anything, but help your wallet be lighter

 

[TheWarrior]

I have two UPA-1's in a stereo configuration, with the XDA-1. I recommend nabbing it now. It does exactly what its supposed to, and the whole system sounds beautiful!

I asked Emotiva, and they informed me its replacement is due out end of summer, and they are known for their trade-up program so I am sure that will still hold true.

But as stated above, you need to drop MP3 for anything but road trips, otherwise this is all a waste of money

 

[derrickdj1]

Need better preamp

One consideration is anothe avr. Some can be had for $600 to $ 1000 with a good DAC and pre-outs. The big box brands like Pioneer Elite and Yamaha are nice. The reason I suggest this is that these companies can give you additional feature that some of the smaller companies can't afford to due to economy of scales. DAC are out dated in 4-5 years due to new technology. I have a Pioneer Elite SC 35 paired with a couple of power amps and the DAC is excellent. For me, this was a more affordable option.

 

[SandyRavage]

Let me stop you right here: Did you mention your source is mp3 files? Have you ever heard expression "crap in, crap out"
Verus are very accurate and revealing speakers. Anything other than CD/FLAC or SACD will sound like crap - and don't blame 8050 for that...

I doubt he's playing 128cbr files.

Everyone's hearing is different but I seriously doubt most people when they say they can hear the immediate differences between a properly encoded 320bit MP3 and a proper FLAC rip without switching back/forth between them a few times. Most of those differences are negligible unless you're listening critically to the equipment, and not the music.

Lossless formats do make sense though nowadays with the relative cheap price of storage (at least before the floods in Thailand) and their ability to encode into other formats but the whole MP3 vs. FLAC debate is a little overboard.

Although none of this matters as AudioSlim is using CDs/FLAC now anyways ....

 

[AudioSlim]

Let me stop you right here: Did you mention your source is mp3 files? Have you ever heard expression "crap in, crap out"

New external DAC will not solve anything, but help your wallet be lighter

Everybody thanks for the replies!

I have a large 160g Ipod with music that varies, but most is cd quality. That whole collection is mirrored on network hard-drives. Part of going back to seperates also meant pulling out the old cd collection that had been gathering dust.

I've been spending time going through my hard drives and getting rid of anything under cd quality, and I will be looking for Flac and other lossless high def files in the future. I'm trying to transition away from the lower quality files. In fact, it's just as much a move away from I-tunes too.

I ended up picking up a XDA-1 since they are so cheap right now. For the money I'm going to play around with it for a while, and see what kind of sound quality I get with it. It arrives tomorrow.

I agree that electronics like DACs evolve quickly, which kind of alludes to the original question of analog stereo pre-amp (USP-1) and then a cheaper DAC that I could then upgrade (or not!) over the years but keep the pre-amp.

Room acoustics could certainly always be better. I have managed to place soft furniture and pillows around, and hang curtains. I covered the hardwood floors with a 1.5 inch thick wool rug. In a bid to further dampen some of the bouncing waves I came up with a scheme that my wife was on board with. I hung a coat rack with 6 large hooks on it on one wall. Now the entire wall is covered with fleeces and puffy jackets instead of bare drywall and pictures! Not as good as foam certainly, but I think it makes a difference nonetheless!'

I have two UPA-1's in a stereo configuration, with the XDA-1. I recommend nabbing it now. It does exactly what its supposed to, and the whole system sounds beautiful!
I asked Emotiva, and they informed me its replacement is due out end of summer, and they are known for their trade-up program so I am sure that will still hold true.
But as stated above, you need to drop MP3 for anything but road trips, otherwise this is all a waste of money

This is good to hear! And I did! Just so you know, I contacted Emotiva and asked about the discount on future models of XDA-1. I was told that the XDA is not considered a "processor," and thus is NOT eligible for the trade-up program... Sucks. I also gathered, from other threads, that Emotiva almost always is slow to bring a unit to market. So late this summer will likely be next year some time.

I think that the DAC/PreAmp form factor is going to develop over the next couple of years. I'll keep an eye on the Benchmark and see if it's still used as a, well, "benchmark" in a year or two!

 

[mjcmt]

If you want to test out a preamp/dac look into the TubeDAC-11 from Grant Fidelity in Canada for only 325 beans. Made in China w/ USA warrantee and sold in NA. The predecessor TubeDAC-09 was highly rated.

I loved my Benchmark feeding a tube power amp, but if I had the money I'd step up to the Bryston BP16 w/ internal DAC.

There are a lot of options out there but you can't beat the TubeDAC-11 for the money. Worth a try.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Not that long ago 128kb Mp3 was considered a CD Quality equivalent ....
Flac and other lossless formats are the only CD quality equivalents I'd consider today.
btw: Not all FLACs are High definition - vast majority of my flac collection is in 44/16 format - exactly same info what CD have.

Like I said before - before pointing fingers on dac - get a high quality mastered CD and play on your ps3 - btw: try both analog and digital outs while you at it.

 

[AudioSlim]

I just thought I'd follow up on this, since I've had the XDA-1 hooked up for a few hours. It has really improved the sound from my speakers. Quite a few CD's that I thought sounded rather meh through the Onkyo now sound VERY good. On other cds the difference is not as noticeable. But overall I'd say it is a very marked difference.

If you want to test out a preamp/dac look into the TubeDAC-11 from Grant Fidelity in Canada for only 325 beans. Made in China w/ USA warrantee and sold in NA. The predecessor TubeDAC-09 was highly rated.

I loved my Benchmark feeding a tube power amp, but if I had the money I'd step up to the Bryston BP16 w/ internal DAC.

There are a lot of options out there but you can't beat the TubeDAC-11 for the money. Worth a try.

Thanks! I've been checking out the Grant Fidelity tube buffer. It looks great and costs under $200!

Not that long ago 128kb Mp3 was considered a CD Quality equivalent ....
Flac and other lossless formats are the only CD quality equivalents I'd consider today.
btw: Not all FLACs are High definition - vast majority of my flac collection is in 44/16 format - exactly same info what CD have.

Like I said before - before pointing fingers on dac - get a high quality mastered CD and play on your ps3 - btw: try both analog and digital outs while you at it.

You're right about that! So far I have downloaded and organized about 20gb of flac files. The vast majority of them are 16/44.

Who knows if it's the DAC that was causing my issues? I was running RCA splitters off the pre-amp outs on the Onkyo, sending signal to a powered sub. I never could find any specs on output voltage for this pre-amp out. Maybe the better power supply and beefier circuitry in this area is making all the difference?

I did try both the analog and digital, thus both DAC's in PS3 and Onkyo receiver. I had a friend sit next to me and we swapped inputs on the receiver. We could not discern any difference at all in sound quality. I've read though, that the PS3 DAC is not great for music, so...