crossover upgrades

Discussion in 'Loudspeakers' started by Fritz, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. everettT Audioholic General

    everettT
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    Well here is the OPs only other post outside this thread

    "heres my answer to that question. Right or wrong its my money and if thats what I want to do Ill do it! LOL"
  2. Fritz Audiophyte

    Fritz
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    Troll! LMAO:D
    SWERD
    Do you have any experience with what you are talking about? I was simply trying to get someone else's perspective based off of their knowledge. I don't think that makes me a troll does it? Its been a little while since I've checked back here. Since then I've replaced all caps and resistors in the B&Ws and I don't think the cost was too high based off the current pricing of same or equal speakers. I can say definitively that the SQ
    has improved and well worth the money and time (IF) and I stress if you know what you are doing and talking about. Next thing I will do is replace all wiring and silver solder all connections. They employed Benic caps and electrolytic in the low pass circuit. But hey thanks for all your vast knowledge, experience, and opinion on the topic.:eek:
  3. Beave Junior Audioholic

    Beave
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    These two consecutive sentences make me laugh.
  4. Swerd Audioholic Spartan

    Swerd
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    I’ve built a number of DIY speakers, as well as built new crossovers (as in a new crossover design) for older commercially obtained speakers. I also have participated in blind listening tests, involving about 40 people, of speakers where the only difference was in the type of crossover capacitors. No one present could reliably hear any difference. So yes, I have first-hand experience in this topic.
    Is that improved sound quality your personal opinion? Did you (and others) directly compare the sound of speakers with the old vs. rebuilt crossovers under blind conditions? You cannot say anything definitive about sound quality unless you have done at least that.
    You can do anything you want to your own speakers. Likewise, you are allowed to have your own opinions about the doubtful benefits of such tweaks. But once you post them on a public forum such as Audioholics, you will get challenged. The ideas you tout have never been demonstrated to provide any audible benefit when put to a rigorous and fair test.

    That fact that you seem to lose your temper and insult people while 'discussing' this further reinforces my belief that you are trolling us.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  5. OscarJr Junior Audioholic

    OscarJr
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    Can you elaborate on the "from what I can tell" part? How do you personally "tell"? Not trying to be an arse, I'm actually wondering because I'm looking to build some crossovers later, and I guess you can say I have faith in the Dayton Audio stuff. Been buying from PE since '97 or so, and they haven't let me down yet.
  6. Swerd Audioholic Spartan

    Swerd
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    I'm not slipperybidness, but I can offer my own answer your question.

    In my experience, Dayton Audio caps are very good. They sell a variety of caps, but I'm talking about their metalized polypropylene (MPP) caps, such as this 6.8 µF 5% cap. This type of MPP cap, with ±5% tolerance, is my first choice when building a crossover. I have an inexpensive inductance/capacitance (LC) meter, and in my hands these caps always measure exactly as labeled. Dayton also sells the more expensive 1% caps, for example 6.8 µF 1%, but they measure no different than the 5% caps. I wonder if the 1% and 5% caps are the same, but without the added inspection for variation from the specified capacitance value.

    Sometimes, if I'm ordering from Madisound instead of Parts Express, I substitute the similar looking and slightly more expensive Bennic MPP caps, such as this. It is said that the Dayton and Bennic caps are both made by the same manufacturer in Taiwan.

    If I can't find the Dayton or Bennic cap I want, I get either Audyn or Solen MPP caps. They aren't an extreme step up in cost. I've never found any reason to buy a more expensive cap.

    I mentioned above that I once participated in a large blind listening test of different caps in speakers. The major findings of that test were:
    • No one, among some 40 DIY speaker builders of varying experience, could reliably hear any difference between different caps in otherwise identical high quality DIY speakers. These types of caps were cheap non-polar electrolytic (NPE) caps, inexpensive Dayton or Bennic MPP caps, or expensive "boutique" caps.
    • The only thing that did matter was the actual capacitance value. The cheap NPE caps often varied by more than ±10% from their labeled value. For the listening test, about 5-10 NPE caps had to be tested before two of similar value (within 10% of the labeled value) could be found. In contrast, all the MPP caps tested were exactly as labeled.
    There is a web page that goes to great length elaborately describing the different sounds due to a large number of different caps. (I won't mention it by name, but its easy to find with a search engine.) It's all wrong! It's obvious the writer never actually tested the caps with a properly controlled blind listening test using a large number of listeners. Instead, the writer 1) assumed that all caps generate a different sound in crossovers, and 2) listened without blinding, with the assumption that he alone could hear all the differences. In my opinion, this is a good example of the audio misinformation so common on the internet. It's complete fiction, and you should stay away from his conclusions.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 3:40 PM
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  7. slipperybidness Audioholic Spartan

    slipperybidness
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    I think Swerd gave a better answer than I could, better real world experience.

    I do like the look and feel of the Dayton caps, and they just "seem" to be quality when you use them and build with them.

    Looking at reviews on the PE website, and seeing that several designers use those caps, just gives me a general feeling of "these are as good as any others out there", but without the boutique name and price.
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  8. Swerd Audioholic Spartan

    Swerd
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    I tried to find something further about this. There is a manufacturer of crossover parts in Taiwan named Bennic Components. It seems likely that they make the Bennic caps and other parts sold by Madisound. The Bennic logo on the building in the website looks identical to the Bennic logo on caps sold by Madisound.

    I had said (above) "It is said that the Dayton and Bennic caps are both made by the same manufacturer in Taiwan". It would be better to say "It is said that Bennic Components of Taiwan makes caps under contract for Parts Express, sold under the Dayton name. There is little, if any, difference between Bennic XPP and Dayton 5% MPP caps."

    As usual, when a manufacturer makes products under contract for a different company to sell, the contract usually includes language meant to keep this arrangement private.

    Most often, the price of the Dayton caps is a small bit lower. For the 6.8 µF caps I used as examples above, the Dayton costs $2.75 and the Bennic sold by Madisound costs $3.05. Compared to the extremely high prices of other boutique caps, this 30¢ difference is too small to matter.
  9. Brian King Enthusiast

    Brian King
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    to weigh in to this often rancorous subject, I tend to pooh pooh demonstrable differences between cables. But I have to say that after years of using Solen or PE caps, when I tried Audyn caps in my crossovers, there was a subtle but audible difference in high frequency smoothness and resolution. Additional benefits? Audyn caps aren't significantly more expensive that what I was using. I don't think I'll go back to Solens or PE. YMMV! I'd be interested in some input from Dennis Murphy, Rick Craig, or Jeff Bagby on this subject.
  10. Swerd Audioholic Spartan

    Swerd
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    One of the organizers of the Blind Capacitor test I described above was Dennis Murphy. His findings became my take home message (as I described).

    I don't know what caps he uses in his Philharmonic Audio speakers, however I do know he says he likes the expensive Mills resistors because their leads are less easily broken than on the cheap resistors.
  11. Dennis Murphy Audioholic General

    Dennis Murphy
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    I use Audyn caps extensively because they're very reasonably priced, sound fine to me, and, most important, they're red. They look great in photographs. I upgrade to more expensive caps for the tweeter circuits for all of my speakers except the AA monitors. I'm not at all sure the premium caps sound any better, but I don't want anyone to lose sleep over whether more expensive caps might have helped out in the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive. I can't tell any difference in sound between the Audyns, Daytons, and Solens.
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  12. Brian King Enthusiast

    Brian King
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    I'd certainly concur with Dennis on the Mills resistors. I've used Mills, Lynx, Ohmite, and Eagle resistors. I've found Mills and Ohmite to be the most pleasing to my ears. I just don't care for the ceramic resistors.
  13. Brian King Enthusiast

    Brian King
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    Well Dennis, if you can't tell the difference in Audyns and Solens, it's obvious you have a severe hearing problem! :)
  14. Dennis Murphy Audioholic General

    Dennis Murphy
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    And some walking problems, and seeing problems, and financial problems. It's all rock and roll.
  15. Brian King Enthusiast

    Brian King
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    You're still my hero anyway.
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  16. Swerd Audioholic Spartan

    Swerd
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    To put prices into perspective, here are the prices of the various 6.8 µF caps mentioned. The first price is if you buy 1-9 caps, and the second is if you buy 10 or more caps.

    Dayton 5% $2.75 ($2.46 for >9)
    Bennic 5% $3.05 ($2.75 for >9)
    Audyn 5% $3.53 ($3.16 for >9)
    Solen 5% $5.04 ($4.85 for >9)
    Dayton 1% $5.19 ($4.65 for >9)
  17. slipperybidness Audioholic Spartan

    slipperybidness
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    When you are in the DIY hobby, a difference of $0.30 can be significant.

    You could look at it 2 ways here:
    1) I could buy 11 of the Daytons for the same cost as 10 of the Bennic.
    2) If I buy 9 of the Daytons, the 10th is free (and each increment saves me $0.30)

    I know this sounds very silly to a non-DIYer. And, if we are talking about a single project, it is silly.

    But, for a chronic-DIYer that is likely to use excess parts for future projects, and likely has many projects in the pipeline, these cost differences are worth consideration. Every $ that I don't spend for project A is an extra dollar that I have available for the next project B.

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