Convince me that crossover overlap is bad...

[lovinthehd]

Huh. That’s very interesting if you’re correct. I may have just learned something. I always thought the LFE+mains setting overrode any XO availability since you had to select large for that setting to be active.
Happy to be wrong! Going to RTFM now!!!

Might depend on avr, but think I can do that with mine.

 

[EthicalEar]

I'm running a set of Polk LSIM 707's (behind a Crown XLS 2502, behind a Denon X3600)) and an SVS SB-3000. The Polks are good down to 30hz. I've been experimenting with crossover points on the sub and the Polks with overlaps as much as 50hz, and I can't really hear anything unpleasant. Other than the obvious bump in the curve where the overlap is (but I like bass!), what is supposed to be the downside?

I have a new pair of SVS PB-3000s that I'm experimenting with. So far My Paradigm 95f's - which look to be close to your Polk mains, are working best with my mains full on the AV and adjusting the SVS phone app LPF down to 62. have the Subs in the back due to room space, both facing me from either end of the couch. I am getting good results without being able to tell the distinct location of the sub. Two subs definitely! But if I had one, it would have to be in the front and facing me. I appreciate this post you started and will try everything everyone is suggesting. However, I cannot understand why anyone would want to limit /crossover the mains to the subs when mains are this good like yours and mine. Sometimes go back and forth between Pure Direct on the receiver - which is just two channel main and sounds much better than the AFD with subs when there isn't a lot of bass in the music anyway and just looking for detail. Not sure I could go back and forth if I had AV on a crossover. I will watch and learn though. Thanks.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Might depend on avr, but think I can do that with mine.

You should check it.

 

[ryanosaur]

I have a new pair of SVS PB-3000s that I'm experimenting with. So far My Paradigm 95f's - which look to be close to your Polk mains, are working best with my mains full on the AV and adjusting the SVS phone app LPF down to 62. have the Subs in the back due to room space, both facing me from either end of the couch. I am getting good results without being able to tell the distinct location of the sub. Two subs definitely! But if I had one, it would have to be in the front and facing me. I appreciate this post you started and will try everything everyone is suggesting. However, I cannot understand why anyone would want to limit /crossover the mains to the subs when mains are this good like yours and mine. Sometimes go back and forth between Pure Direct on the receiver - which is just two channel main and sounds much better than the AFD with subs when there isn't a lot of bass in the music anyway and just looking for detail. Not sure I could go back and forth if I had AV on a crossover. I will watch and learn though. Thanks.

From a guy that has stellar mains...
You aren't neutering your speakers.
My Mains are solid to 25 Hz. I also have 2 very capable Subs. I still employ Bass Management by setting them to Small and Cross at 80. I can hear the difference in the way the speaker uses the power.
The 8" Revelator Woofer is an amazing machine, and it is extraordinary in the TL design. It still requires power to drive in the lower frequencies. Crossed higher, even more than the normal octave I recommend, the Mid and High frequencies pick up more clarity. My Subs do what they were meant to do.
Mind, I do still listen to music in Direct Mode, which strips away the Subs and Room Correction. Sound Quality is still very high. But I do listen to programming that will tax even that 25Hz extension and makes it pointless.
The 32' stop on Grand Pipe Organs is 16Hz! There is also some serious Infrasonic content in some of the Manufactured Music I enjoy. This all would lead to that same Woofer not performing at it's best.

Having tried the other options (LFE+Main, Large, Etc...) my trained ears prefer it as I described.

Ymmv.

 

[lovinthehd]

You should check it.

Nah, no real interest in running LFE+Main, have tried several times, just not my cup o' tea.

 

[mazersteven]

just not my cup o' tea.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Nah, no real interest in running LFE+Main, have tried several times, just not my cup o' tea.

I never liked it either. Just makes a mess. My mains are only good to mid 30’s but even crossed higher, they’re very dynamic still. Lfe+mains just makes a muddy mess. Still, I’d like to refresh my brain cell... seems like I’ve forgotten more shitt than I remember. Damn...

 

[EthicalEar]

From a guy that has stellar mains...
You aren't neutering your speakers.
My Mains are solid to 25 Hz. I also have 2 very capable Subs. I still employ Bass Management by setting them to Small and Cross at 80. I can hear the difference in the way the speaker uses the power.
The 8" Revelator Woofer is an amazing machine, and it is extraordinary in the TL design. It still requires power to drive in the lower frequencies. Crossed higher, even more than the normal octave I recommend, the Mid and High frequencies pick up more clarity. My Subs do what they were meant to do.
Mind, I do still listen to music in Direct Mode, which strips away the Subs and Room Correction. Sound Quality is still very high. But I do listen to programming that will tax even that 25Hz extension and makes it pointless.
The 32' stop on Grand Pipe Organs is 16Hz! There is also some serious Infrasonic content in some of the Manufactured Music I enjoy. This all would lead to that same Woofer not performing at it's best.

Having tried the other options (LFE+Main, Large, Etc...) my trained ears prefer it as I described.

Ymmv.

Thanks! I have tried that in the past but that's when I had crappy subs so it never worked. I'll have some fun experimenting with your suggestion.

 

[Jeff R.]

With speakers set to Large, there is no Bass Management and the speakers are receiving full range information. To the best of my knowledge, no XO is applied.
Anybody, is this correct, or no?

That is my understanding. You need to set the speakers to small and cross at 60.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[highfigh]

lol I guess I'm just trying to max out the "bass power" of the system. take advantage of the good low end end of the 707's, plus the output from the subwoofer. I'm slowly starting to understand the application of each AVR setting and how they affect each other....

You need to look at the sound as energy and when energy comes from two (or more) sources, it can add, subtract or do nothing to the overall energy level- this is called interference and it can be constructive or destructive. Look at waves if you go to a lake or ocean- when they meet, some peaks disappear, some become huge and when they're halfway between their high and low levels, they don't affect each other. When they add to each other, they're considered to be 'in phase' and when they cancel each other, they're 'out of phase. This happens in liquids (the fluid phase of matter) and it happens in a gas. If the sub and main speakers are producing the same energy and that energy collides, it WILL have an effect. It looks like a series of narrow peaks & valleys- the appearance is the reason it's called 'comb filtering' because that what it looks like. That's a bad thing for the sound, just as a deep V-shaped cancellation is bad, due to destructive interference.

Here ya go-

What is Phase Cancellation? Understand & Eliminate It In Your Audio | LN

Phase cancellation is simple to understand on the surface, harder in full, and even more difficult for mixing engineers to hear at times. Fortunately...

ledgernote.com

 

[EthicalEar]

My Paradigm PF 95s are similar, good to 24 hz and very tight. I ended up crossing them at 60 noting I tried 80 then 70 the next time now very happy with 60. Everything us balanced. No more LFE+Mains! Thanks All! I also had to cross center and surrounds to 60 to make them sound natural. Directions are to set centers much higher but the vocals from center didn't match Mains, then same for surround sides and backs. Atmos on celling I left at 120. So all is well with my SVS PB-3000. Got to get out the room correction and mess with that and then do it all over again. Small room they have to stay where they are so will try the room correction. I did treat the corners and walls behind the couch with the big expensive acoustic art panels (my wife loves the hillside flowers one). First time ever I am giving way to trying room correction auto-configure that instead of my own ears. It just never stops. I just never stop messing with everything.

OK a few hours later, I have finished watching a few of Gene's videos on Subs. Looks like I have a very long way to go. I just ordered an SPL meter. For now, when I get a chance, I'll have some wine and listen to what I have achieved so far.

 

[EthicalEar]

You need to look at the sound as energy and when energy comes from two (or more) sources, it can add, subtract or do nothing to the overall energy level- this is called interference and it can be constructive or destructive. Look at waves if you go to a lake or ocean- when they meet, some peaks disappear, some become huge and when they're halfway between their high and low levels, they don't affect each other. When they add to each other, they're considered to be 'in phase' and when they cancel each other, they're 'out of phase. This happens in liquids (the fluid phase of matter) and it happens in a gas. If the sub and main speakers are producing the same energy and that energy collides, it WILL have an effect. It looks like a series of narrow peaks & valleys- the appearance is the reason it's called 'comb filtering' because that what it looks like. That's a bad thing for the sound, just as a deep V-shaped cancellation is bad, due to destructive interference.

Here ya go-

What is Phase Cancellation? Understand & Eliminate It In Your Audio | LN

Phase cancellation is simple to understand on the surface, harder in full, and even more difficult for mixing engineers to hear at times. Fortunately...

ledgernote.com

Thank you! I changed crossover to 80 now and living and loving the sound. Great explanation!

 

[sterling shoote]

The manufacturer of my sub and mains suggested a 63 Hz crossover. I set mains to crossover at 60 Hz, since my amp's bass management does not have a 63 Hz crossover point. At any rate, the OP might want to experiment.