connecting external stereo amp to Denon AVC x3700h

[DonaldB]

I am intending to buy the Denon AVC x3700h receiver, which I want to use in a 5.1 set up. I listen to a lot of music and I want to continue to play stereo music through my Devialet expert 200 which is driving Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers. The best option I think is to use this system for my front (L&R) channel, connected through the pre-out of the Denon to the Devialet line in with pass-through configured. I can then use the other inputs to the Devialet for stereo music, and use the Denon when I watching movies etc. This is nearly a good option, though it does mean that with my sub ( ML Descent) connected to the Denon, I will have to change physical connections if I want it to fill in the bass for stereo through the Devialet without the Denon - unless someone has a cunning plan to get around this?
My main question though is about the connection to the pre-out for the front channel operation. I have read about people using external power amps with 7 (?) channels connected to all the pre-outs, but I cannot find information about only using the front channel pre-out. Is this possible? I have read somewhere about needing to assign 9.2 channels, and then configuring the additional external 2 channels to the front, and that this works, but how does the Denon and particularly Audyssey etc, handle things with a 9.2 configuration and only 5.1 physical channels in reality?
Another option is that I forget the Denon, and instead buy the Yamaha Aventage rx-a1080,which I understand is designed for front channel pre-out to external amp, but it seems that this is less future-proofed, and potentially provides lower sound quality? ( I don't think the 8K difference is very relevant but who knows the future?) The sound quality may not be an issue with the main speakers being driven by the Devialet, so perhaps this is the way to go, however, the cost of both options is quite similar and the Denon seems like the better option - though only if it will do what I want it to, otherwise it's useless.
Though not really relevant to the question, it may be interesting to mention that in addition to the ESL front pair, and the Descent sub, I have the Martin Logan 50xti centre speaker and their SLM xl as surrounds.
Thank you for any advice and help!

 

[ski2xblack]

Based on this review, I question using the Devialet as a two channel amp with the Denon as a preamp compared to just using the Denon for everything. The possible bottleneck with merely using the Denon is the load your ML present.

 

[DonaldB]

Thank you for your response.
We all have our own opinions and judgement of hi-fi components. Reviews are not always entirely subjective and the way we hear and perceive equipment performance will always be personal to the listener. There are many variables that effect the overall experience.
Having said that, the review you reference is about the only negative review you will find for the Devialet. The reviewer is focused on measurements rather than listening. When it comes to music, I trust my ears, not meters and computer analysis. Subjecting an amp to a constant, powerful high frequency tone, is not indicative of how it is designed to be used. Besides, it seems quite possible that he had an old/faulty unit anyway - at the time of writing, the unit he reviewed had not been produced for several years, and he does not mention where he sourced it from. Why was he reviewing an old expert 200 when its successor the expert pro 220 had been on the market for 2 or 3 years? The whole thing is a little odd.
I am far from alone in finding the Devialet quite superb in terms of its transparency, dynamics, sound stage and overall musicality. I have owned and listened to hi-fi for nearly 40 years, and the Devialet is one of the most natural and uncoloured amps I have heard, and as one reviewer said, " you haven't heard silence till you've heard a Devialet". That's how quiet the background is, which lends the most wonderful sense of space and natural nuance to any decent recording. The clarity and detail is superb and compliments the spatial properties of the electrostatics beautifully and harmoniously.
So... no, there is no way in my opinion that Denon can come even close. Couple that with, as you mention, the load that the ML present, and for sure it is the way I wish to go. The question is whether I can use it as I plan to, or if the set-up is going to be a problem?

 

[ski2xblack]

As long as the Denon has front L & R pre-outs, sure, give it a try.

Agree on the audibility of what Amir measured, just thought it was odd that the analog inputs would land the Devaliet in the middle of the pack as far as measured performance, on par with the Denon alone. But bee fart in a hurricane measured differences don't matter if it handles the ML better. (I don't believe amps can produce "space and nuance" as that's a function of the production quality of the source, your speakers, and the local acoustic environment; amps just amplify, they either get out of the way of the music or they don't. Those within AVRs are often bedeviled by low power, inability to drive low impedances, and heavy handed 'protection' circuitry that compounds bad clipping behavior, which most certainly can be audible and get in the way of the music. So use what works.)

I think it would require some really, really sensitive speakers combined with vault like silence in the room to even get a whif of s/n differences between amps. Even then it's probably guesswork. So trust your ears, but to paraphrase Feynman, your own ears are the easiest to fool. An unbiased demo of your Denon handling everything might be better than you expect.

 

[DonaldB]

Fair enough! There's not much in your reply that I would venture to disagree with. Perhaps it would have been more accurate and fair to say that the combination of the Devialet and the ESLs create a reproduction from a good source that I enjoy, one that I find "real" and with very little imposition of equipment on the music. Point is, I like the result - which after all is the result we all seek. The amp drives the speakers well in my opinion.
For the record, I had not really meant to suggest that the amp produced "space and nuance" what i was saying was that it's the silence - the emptiness around the sound which creates the sense of space and nuance. In the same way that it is the depth of black that defines the quality of a good TV picture, I believe that in audio reproduction it is the sense of silence and space "around" the sounds that creates that almost indefinable rightness.. the magic when a guitar string vibrates in the nothingness of the air between the points were your speakers physically sit.
So, that having been said, I am still no wiser in regard to my original question. If I were confident that it was just as simple as connecting to the L & R pre-outs, then I would not have asked for advice, I would just go for it, but it seems that Denon complicates things a bit - the x2700h for instance, has L & R pre-outs, but apparently they only work when assigned to "zone 2" which is part of the whole multi- room concept, which makes it about as useful as your bee fart in a wet paper bag...
Then we have the 3700 which has pre-outs for all 7 channels, but as I said in my first post, I don't understand if these can work truly independently in a straightforward "connect L & R pre-outs and sit back and enjoy" or if they have some weird assignment/ set-up complexity that I will not discover until I've purchased the unit and start tearing my hair out in frustration. Perhaps it's worth mentioning that I live in the Middle East, in a country with no Denon ( or any other worthwhile) dealership, so I'm ordering and importing, which increases the costs, and to all practical purposes prohibits returns or useful aftersales service... hence the caution and inquisition.

 

[mazersteven]

focused on measurements rather than listening.

That statement represents 98% of the members here

 

[ski2xblack]

Sorry I didn't address your main question. I blame the coffee for the pedantic Audioholicsism.

Seems like it would still work, as what the zone assignment is doesn't matter provided it's passing the L and R channels...not sure if that would be an unadulterated full range signal or the bass managed L & R that zone 1 gets.

Hey, Denon guys, could use some help here!

 

[Swerd]

My main question though is about the connection to the pre-out for the front channel operation. I have read about people using external power amps with 7 (?) channels connected to all the pre-outs, but I cannot find information about only using the front channel pre-out. Is this possible? I have read somewhere about needing to assign 9.2 channels, and then configuring the additional external 2 channels to the front, and that this works, but how does the Denon and particularly Audyssey etc, handle things with a 9.2 configuration and only 5.1 physical channels in reality?

You now have Martin Logan ESL speakers driven by a 2-channel Devialet Expert 200 integrated amp. You want to know if you add a home theater receiver, such as a Denon AVR-X3700H while continuing to drive the ESL speakers with the Devialet. Is that correct?

Yes. I just looked at the Denon AVR-X3700H manual. As far as I can tell, after a quick read, you can run the Denon as a pre-amp for the front left and right channels, while powering the ESL speakers with your Devialet amp. Connect the Denon's pre-outs for front left and right channels to the appropriate inputs on the Devialet. And, connect the ESL speakers to the Devialet amp, while connecting all other speakers to the appropriate speaker connections on the Denon.

This way, the Devialet amp powers the front left and right speakers, no matter what source you play, 2-channel music or multi-channel audio. The Denon 3700 powers the other channels.

Ignore Zone 2. It is meant for 2-channel playback in another room.

See pages 63 and 216-17 in the manual. I see how their choice of words is confusing. For example, page 63 says:

You can use this unit as a pre-amp by connecting an external power amplifier to the PRE OUT connectors. By adding a power amplifier to each channel, the realness of the sound can be further enhanced. Select the terminal to use and connect the device.​

Instead of "each channel" I think they should say "as many channels as you choose, up to 7".

 

[VMPS-TIII]

You now have Martin Logan ESL speakers driven by a 2-channel Devialet Expert 200 integrated amp. You want to know if you add a home theater receiver, such as a Denon AVR-X3700H while continuing to drive the ESL speakers with the Devialet. Is that correct?

Yes. I just looked at the Denon AVR-X3700H manual. As far as I can tell, after a quick read, you can run the Denon as a pre-amp for the front left and right channels, while powering the ESL speakers with your Devialet amp. Connect the Denon's pre-outs for front left and right channels to the appropriate inputs on the Devialet. And, connect the ESL speakers to the Devialet amp, while connecting all other speakers to the appropriate speaker connections on the Denon.

This way, the Devialet amp powers the front left and right speakers, no matter what source you play, 2-channel music or multi-channel audio. The Denon 3700 powers the other channels.

Ignore Zone 2. It is meant for 2-channel playback in another room.

See pages 63 and 216-17 in the manual. I see how their choice of words is confusing. For example, page 63 says:

You can use this unit as a pre-amp by connecting an external power amplifier to the PRE OUT connectors. By adding a power amplifier to each channel, the realness of the sound can be further enhanced. Select the terminal to use and connect the device.​

Instead of "each channel" I think they should say "as many channels as you choose, up to 7".

While you can use the pre-out for Front left and right with an external amp the internal front amp will still be operating on the Denon 3700. If you want the sound to be disconnected from the Fronts internal amp you need to configure pre-out for Fronts in amp assign.

On the Denon 4700 the only way this option is selectable is if you setup a 7.1.4 configuration with all four Height channels enabled. Then, amp assign offers the ability to select pre-out for Fronts. It is probably similar on the Denon 3700 where you have to setup all the speaker channels in use before amp assign offers the pre-out Front configuration.

The other way, is of course to select "Pre-out" in amp assign and none of the internal amps will receive a music signal.

 

[DonaldB]

Thank you all for taking the time respond to my post, and answer my questions!
I think, from what you have told me, that I can be fairly confident to proceed with the AVR X3700H, as it would appear that one way or another I can set it up pretty much as I need. Of course as Swerd said, it would be nice if Denon was clearer in their description of the use of the pre-outs, and as VPMS- TIII says, it would be preferable to have the front internal amp disconnected.
I would still like to find out how Audyssey will behave in either scenario, ( utilising just the front pre-out as it is, or configuring a 7.1.2 (?) set up in order to disconnect the front internal amp). In both cases Audyssey will be expecting speakers and channels that are not there. I don't see the room correction software as either critical or infallable, but it would be nice to be able to use it as intended.
I note that none of you suggested I go with the Yamaha, whether by accident or design, but I'll take it as a vote of confidence in the Denon.

 

[highfigh]

Using the pre-outs in the Denon is one of the settings shown in the manual. Denon AVRs have personal settings presets- look for that information.

Asking, rather than reading, doesn't teach anyone much. Sounds harsh, but it's true. You (and others) will never get to know their equipment if the manual isn't read. If you still have questions, make a list and ask for the answers to those.

It's less a vote of confidence and more a matter of staying on topic.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I would still like to find out how Audyssey will behave in either scenario, ( utilising just the front pre-out as it is, or configuring a 7.1.2 (?) set up in order to disconnect the front internal amp). In both cases Audyssey will be expecting speakers and channels that are not there. I don't see the room correction software as either critical or infallable, but it would be nice to be able to use it as intended.
I note that none of you suggested I go with the Yamaha, whether by accident or design, but I'll take it as a vote of confidence in the Denon.

Audyssey will expect speakers on each channel that you setup in "Amp assign" when you run it. There may be a way to tell Audyssey to skip some of the speakers if you don't have them but that wasn't obvious on my 4700.

Either way, you can run the 3700 and use the pre-outs for the fronts even if you are not using pre-out mode. (You won't find that in the manual.) If you don't run Audyssey then Dynamic EQ is not available. I think you would miss that feature. I would.

Below is the screen showing when Denon offers the Front preamp option. As you can see, it doesn't show up until you configure 11.1 with a full assembly of speakers with the 4700. The 3700 will be slightly different. The other option is "Preout" in amp assign and the music signal does not pass to any of the Denon amps.

 

[Swerd]

I think, from what you have told me, that I can be fairly confident to proceed with the AVR X3700H, as it would appear that one way or another I can set it up pretty much as I need. Of course as Swerd said, it would be nice if Denon was clearer in their description of the use of the pre-outs, and as VPMS- TIII says, it would be preferable to have the front internal amp disconnected.

The clarity of writing in AV receiver owner's manuals has been poor for years. I am most familiar with Denon AVRs – my experience with their products is very good, but I have been frustrated and angered by their owner's manuals. With time and use, I learned more from trying all the different choices in the AVR's menus than I could learn from reading the manual. For what it's worth, I once helped a friend set up his system using a Yamaha. I thought that manual was much more clearly written.

I would still like to find out how Audyssey will behave in either scenario, (utilising just the front pre-out as it is, or configuring a 7.1.2 (?) set up in order to disconnect the front internal amp). In both cases Audyssey will be expecting speakers and channels that are not there. I don't see the room correction software as either critical or infallable, but it would be nice to be able to use it as intended.

Your understanding of room correction software is correct – it's neither critical nor infallible. There are too many variables with different speakers, different rooms, and different speaker or listener placement to allow an owner's manual to predict how well it works.. Keep trying it under a variety of conditions.

I note that none of you suggested I go with the Yamaha, whether by accident or design, but I'll take it as a vote of confidence in the Denon.

I have nothing against Yamaha. My experience has mainly been with Denon, and your original question was about using a Denon AVR.

Good luck with the Denon 3700.

 

[DonaldB]

once again, my sincere thanks to all concerned for your time and patience in answering my questions.
With due deference to highfigh, it was precisely through reading the manuals that I became aware of how much I didn't understand about how the system operated.
Thank you VPMS- TIII for the detailed response and helpful screenshots, and to Swerd for all your input, and supporting my views on the Denon manuals!
This is my first experience of approaching a forum such as this, and you have made it a welcoming and informative experience. So thanks to all.
I'm off to order my Denon 3700 !


.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh Denon manuals of today do not compare to the older ones, the ones today are much more easily reads. Used to be a guy called Batpig who put out a Denon-to-English dictionary once upon a time (can still find it here if needed but its really only for old models and is no longer maintained).

 

[PENG]

The reviewer is focused on measurements rather than listening. When it comes to music, I trust my ears, not meters and computer analysis. Subjecting an amp to a constant, powerful high frequency tone, is not indicative of how it is designed to be used.

He focused on measurements because that would be science based findings that should give the readers a good idea of how the DUT compares in terms of manufacturers specs vs actual verifiable performance on the test bench. Trusting ears wouldn't be bad either if eyes, and or minds are not involved, and the tests were done in a strict protocol to ensure all else are equal.

Besides, it seems quite possible that he had an old/faulty unit anyway - at the time of writing, the unit he reviewed had not been produced for several years, and he does not mention where he sourced it from. Why was he reviewing an old expert 200 when its successor the expert pro 220 had been on the market for 2 or 3 years? The whole thing is a little odd.

That's a fair point, it would be best to compare new units, though it is something to think about if the performance of a relatively high price unit would deteriorate noticeably on the bench after a few years of use.

So... no, there is no way in my opinion that Denon can come even close. Couple that with, as you mention, the load that the ML present, and for sure it is the way I wish to go. The question is whether I can use it as I plan to, or if the set-up is going to be a problem?

I know it is hard to believe, but measurements do reflect reality, if done properly, like measuring the right things, using the right equipment etc., opinions are just opinions and would mean a lot more if done in DBT formats. The "load" factor is definitely an important factor, but we can't just go by impedance/phase angles specs either without determining the voltage/current requirements for the specific applications. If the review I am thinking is the one you referred to, the reviewers typically do provide a lot of details of the test conditions, enough, imo for the readers to have good idea how the DUT would meet their own requirements.