connecting 2 completely different subwoofers in the same (computer) system

M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
first of all sorry if this topic is in the wqrong place and/or it has already been answered but I couldn't find anything about it!

I have a normal computer 5.1 system conected to my PCI Sopundblaster Audigy Card in wich I have 3 cables for the 2 front speakers PLUS 2 rear/surround speakers PLUS the cable with the LFE and middle front speaker....

I want to conect on top of this a subwoofer that only has two(2) inputs and it probably does de crossover frequency choice by itself simultneously with the already installed system!

MY DOUBT IS: since the subwoofer only has 2 inputs if I make a Y RCA cable in wich I connect to the subwoofer the 2 front speaker will the extra (new) subwoofer receive Low frequency siugnals or my audio card cuts this LFE signals and the subwoofer w'ont have bass that it may work with?....

PS - all this doubts come from the fact that one of the subwoffer that is already installed is prepared for working with a computer audio card and the new subwoofer is prepared to be conected to anything being the spliitng of the frequencies done inside this subwoofer itself!.....

IF what I wan't to do is not possible the way I told you help me out telling me the way that is best....or even if it is impossible at all! because I'm trying to connect so the same system provide from my audigy computer card a subwoofer prepared to it and another at the same time that never was intnded for systems for more than 2.1 squeme.


ThaKs

PS - if needed I can photogreaph the inputs of the "new" subwoofer that I want to add to my actual 5.1 corfiguration that's onected to the computer's audio card... but I think I was explanatory enough..

Thaks once again!
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Welcome to the forum!

Regarding which computer output signal to connect to the new subwoofer, I'd use the subwoofer audio output. I'd do that because you are already using the computer to manage which frequencies are being played by the speakers and which ones are being played by the sub - I'd stick with that. While the new sub can filter the frequencies, you don't need to have it do that.

If you decide to hook it up that way, you don't want the new sub filtering any frequencies. So, you'll want to either disable the internal filter (some subs have a non-filtered LFE input or a switch to turn off the filter) or set the crossover frequency knob on the new sub to the highest number possible. In addition, you might just need to connect to one of the two inputs on the sub. Check the owners manual and/or let us know the model number and we can help you with all of that.

If you have any questions about how to split the center/sub output signal from the computer to connect the new sub, just let us know.
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
....thanks a lot for the extremely concise answer... the subwoofer I'm connecting doesn't have neither a crossover frequency knob nor a non "processed" input.... it only has the left and right inputs!....actually the the engenneer that did this didin't planned it very well because it makes it virtually impossible to connect to a computer unless I configure the soundcard for only 2.1 system in wich the whole range of freqquencies will be in the two channels and that's it!

I'll do as you told me..... but I haven't told you the main reason why Ive wanted to do this...my main issue with the sound I have in my computer it's that it seams to be not "enolving" has it could/should be... anda I get that effect with the "new" suboofer I'm going to connect when it was connected to the DVD player..... unfortunately not even adjusting the audio card )parameters LFE crossover frequency and the presseted equalizer) from the creative software I never get the sound I'm aiming for.... I think the problem it's that effectively the speakers that I have aren't of much quality (Creative Inspire P5800)....BUT THEY SHOULD BE even though they where very cheap when I bought them 6 or 7 years ago..... just for comparison..at the time I've changed from only 2 speakers (very good brand: JBL with 20W efective power.)..I thought it was weird that my craetive inspire P5800 sound system WITH subwoofer wasn't as "beautiful to ear" as the old 2 big JBL speakers (once again, even at the time it was the bass that it wasn't complete........now it's the same thing comparing with this subwoofer that wasn't even intended for use in a computer,... I just hope it isn't the audio card that it isn't making a good 5.1 work with the frequencies ....because in that case it's not conecting ths sub that will make the difference since it's not an amplification and/or working frequency rage of the speakers and sub, but simply the separation of those frequencies in the audio card....

THANKS A LOT for the very complete answer!.... I've posted the question here because I'm really lacking the time but my area is electronics engeneering so I was a little lase hopping for a straight answer that would avoid having to soldier cables and loosing time with this..... I'll try it the way you told me...anda I'll make a few other experiences and I'll let you know...(this probably around easter because at the moment I really don't have the time!....).......another thing....if I said anything that's wrong anybody that reads this please correct me because nobody know everything...(it may seam weird but I really enjoy when people tell me, without problems and with logic, that I am wrong because knowing that I'm wrong is learning.... ;)

(maybe not easter..I'll try to connect this stuff over the weekend. Take care!

Thanks and Greatings from Azores!
 
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I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
If I follow, you want to extend the bass of your front speakers with one subwoofer and have another subwoofer for LFE.
One sub has no tuning, the other has gain, phase and crossover.

Plug the un-tunable sub onto the Hifis LFE channel and use your amp or PC to set the gain, distance (phase) and crossover.

Plug the tunable sub onto the front speakers line level connections.
Or if your tunable sub has high level inputs, connect those directly to the amplified outputs feeding the front speakers.
Set the gain, phase and crossover to match the front speakers low f roll off.

One last thing to do.
You must turn off 'bass redirection' on your front speakers and set the speakers to large(ie not small).
With redirection on and speakers set to small, the bass will never go to the sub attached to the front speakers, it will go to the other sub.
 
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M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
...once again...another extremely concise answer....... I can see that you guys in this forum really have the pleasure of sharing knowledge... I'll follow your tips and let you know how it worked!

PS - I don't have a high power input, but that thought/idea you gave had already crossed my mind... since electronics it's my area it's simple (I can visualize it as I write) to do an power atenuator/splitter that it won't short tha output and I have a few ideas for it to be praticly "noise free"... in case I do that kind of assembly I'll give you guys the electonic scheme for anybody's future use!....

I'll try to do all that this weekend...(try because I have the mid term exams almost banging on my door)... but it doesn't matter "when"...I'll let you guys know what I've done and how did it work..

Thanks...once again greatings from the small islands in the middle of the Atlantic ;)
 
I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
Happy to help :)

An even easier solution for no high level input is something like this high level to line level converter.
Celsus LC2 Adjustable Converter
I've used this exact one with a sub and a seat shaker, fantastic product.
This one has a gain control for each channel, can be handy.

You can get some for less than £3, I dont know if they are bass limited or have other issues, fyi.
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
.... at the moment I've stopped working for finishing my degree ... I really prefer to do it by myself it's an € problem LOOLOLLOL although it really it's not expensive and it seems to be professional audio hardware... (even better if I find a circuit scheme.. I know that there's a lot of you guys that like to do thing yourselfs ;) like me XD


HEY ONE DOUBT HAS CROSS MY MIND.... since 20-120Hz have so long wave length I have my suboofer at a corner of my room behind a desk and a bedside table... I think since it has such long wave length it doesn't affect the "spreading" of the LFE sound... even because I've had other configurations with the same equipment, in other houses I've lived in, and I always had the "lack of bass embrace" sensation.... but since audio it's you guys experties is it possible that I'm blocking to much of the emmited "higher-low frequencies"? .....I've just now thoughted of it... because maybe the not "embracing" bass sound can be due to the higher bass freqeuncies (till 120Hz) not being as well spread as the lower ones...is this possible?...theoretically it really does happen...but praticaly speaking does the human ear notices the difference???
 
I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
Furniture, wall materials, your position and the position of the sub can affect the subs response and what you hear/feel.

This is my easy setup method:

Play some bassy music and walk all round the room.
Find where the bass is at its strongest or very near its strongest if the best position isnt convenient.
Place the subwoofer there.
Play more bass and find more spots of strong bass.

You can choose any of those positions (including the current one) as places to put your sub and your seating.
This will give you a good starting point to get it setup optimally.


If you are getting too much boom at a few frequencies, try some of the other positions (that you found earlier) for your seat or sub.
Also try pulling it away from the wall(s), this will make its resonant frequency with the room on that (those) axis lower, hopefully reducing the boom enough and will give lower notes a slight boost too.

If you cant get enough deep bass, put the sub in a corner (there should be one or more good corners you found earlier), far enough away from the walls to prevent boom.

Play about :)
If you are serious about getting the bass right, you may have to rearrange the room around your hifi.
This is what I do.

Try moving furniture away thats near the sub if you are still getting too much boom.
Use pillows, cushions and quilts to dampen resonance temporarily. This will let you know if its worth investing in some damping material.
I have 2 cushions down the side of a speaker that is quite close to a side wall, solved my boom problem.


I forgot another really good one!
Get a solid wood bread board from Ikea.
The glued wooden blocks version is fine (what I am using).
Stand your sub on it with spikes and the bass should deepen and tighten up.
I cant recommend this enough.

If this works well for you, you can buy isolating platforms but they cost a bit more than a breadboard and I dont know if they will be better.


Oh yeah, dont forget to set gain and phase correctly at every position you try the sub in.
 
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M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
...hey...something (good but weird) happened...

maintaining the 5.1 configuration I've connected the ouput of the audio card of the 2 front speakers directly to the new subwoofer... and it has a complete and embracing bass level...

What I fid weird is that isn't it supposed that my audio card should cut the bass from the sattelites?( in this case I've obtained a very good bass from the 2 front speakers)... this is good because I simply have to split the connector and redirect it to the new subwoofer and that's it, my aim is achieved... but is this bqass "emulated" or in other words "generated" by some low frequencies that the subwoofer can process that "escaped" to the audio card "cutting"... or is this really the original bass really amplified? (do you guys know what I mean?)...
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
.... directly in the speakers there isn't any filter... but probably the bass is cutted in the output of the amplifier so that the bass doesn't reach the sattelite (because the sattelite not being prepared for low frequencies it would originate noise) ... but in this case is present otherwise I think that the bass level achieved conecting as I did it wouldn't be so "perfect"... yes.. it was your ideia (the simplest one) that I've tested.... I wasn't expecting it would work because theoreticaly the sound card should cut the base from the satelites... but probably that's done in the output of the amplifier...(or perhaps more likely in the input of the amplifier BUT NOT in the output of my Soudblaster Audigy soundcard)

THANKS A LOT :)

PS EDIT - And probably this frequenies "cutting" in my speaker system (creative inspire P5800) is what ruined my sound quality all this years.... because I know that even though the Audigy sound card is quite old nowbody complains about it's quality except me..... now I know that the problem is not the sound card... is probably the speaker system that trying to manage the frequencies by itself doens't do such a good service as it should!
 
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I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
It looks like your satellites are working exactly as they did before you plugged the sub on, and now you have the sub as extra bass.

The downside to having the same bass going to both is that you wont feel the very deepest bass because you will adjust the bass level to suit the louder higher frequency bass that both the speaker and sub are producing.
ie you wont have the sub running quite as high as it should be so lowest frequency sounds wont be very loud.

Really you should set up the subs crossover to the lower cutoff of your speakers.
Then you can turn the sub up more to bring the volume of lower frequencies up.

ps
The Audigy isnt that good compared to todays cards.
I have one here, it is eclipsed by the standard X-Fi card and that is bested by cards like the Auzentech Prelude or the Asus Xonars.

What Hifi are you using?
You might appreciate a better sound card.
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
...another thing that justifies this that I'm saying (it's stupid that I've never done this before)....

(forget about the new subwoofer, consider only the P5800 system conected in 5.1 configuration):

When I disconnect the input that comes from the soudcard (the jack that's supposed to bring the center speaker and LFE signals) when I disconect it the Bass ISN'T AFFECTED... the only thing that happens is that the center speaker starts to work because probably it doesn't have the "order" not to work (since it's supposed to work only if a "center" speaker signal is present and being thqat signal transmitted through this cable.... )...

What this means?.... that the bass is completly processed in the speaker system not in the soundcard... I'm using the original software and drivers that are quite old too.... because a few days ago when I've started testing the new drivers and software didn't word so I haven't just bothered with them anymore and probably with new drivers and software the bass would get the embracing quality I'm trying to achieve
 
I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
Bass from stereo sources, like music, will NOT go to the 5.1 sub unless you set up bass redirection (unless something funky happened like with your card).
The LFE channel is a completely separate channel, like left, right, centre...
Stereo does not have an LFE channel so the sub is not used normally.

If you set up bass redirection, bass should then go to the sub and not the satellites, thats what it is for.
Your amplifier may also have a feature to redirect or double up the bass as well.
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
..yes..probably you're right... although some people doesn't see the difference, there are others (probably my case) that from one system to another can notice the quality differences...

although I say that it's only just me to complain about the audigy sound card actually I've never tried other newer and better quality sound cards... and of course being as old as this audigy card is of course there's better cards nowadays in the computer-audio market... probably buying a new card is really in my best interest....

( I'm using an original Soub Blaster Audigy purchased in 2004 if I'm not mistakened) card and a Soubblaster Inspire P5800 5.1 system)
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
Waht you're saying is completely true that's why I didn't expect the bass to be present in the sattelites... but it's there...... and yes the bass redirection is active!... the only thing that I can see is that probably the drivers and/or software aren't working right... (the driver is a 2001 file...it's realy old)
 
I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
Yeah, a newer driver might help.

Your Audigy is about the right quality for the sound system you have.
It 'might' be worth a better soundcard but I recommend borrowing a better card to see if you can tell the difference.
 
M

migadrenaline

Enthusiast
...Ok....I'll format the computer and try to see if the new driver makes any dioferene...(one thing I've noticed new is that in fact (of course this happens with the nbass redirect OFF) BUT WITH Bass Redirect ON if I put the bass to it's max (not on the bass controler of the sound system) if I put bass to it's max on the software EVEN EITH BASS REDIRECT ON I get lots os noise from bass present in the satteleites...this is not normal!...I have come kind of problem her....either it's from the driver and/or software or in last case some peculiar problem in my sound card because this really shouldn't happen....

ONCE AGAIN...thanks a lot for you guys attetions and fast and concise feed back...this is one forum that's already in my bookmarks.... In other forums I try to hepl and make good articles that help everybody that goes to them (those foruns where I see that people really like to help)... unfortunatly even though electronics and fisicss it's nothing new to me I'll be honest and say that in terms of "audio" specifically I can't help you guys as you guys helped me... but... once again...audioholics it's bookmarked....

KEEP ON THE GOOD WORK on sharing information ...(I hate those kind of people that don't like to share knowledge...and tht's obvious that's not what happens here)..

THALS AGAIN...GREATING SFROM AZORES (those small 9 islands in the middle of the atlantic ;) take care you guys and latter if I get to any conclusion on this matter I'll let you know here because it's allways information that you may use)

Miguel Azores :) :þ XD ;)
 
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