Concerns for the Future of Sound United and Update on my Marantz 7706.

[TLS Guy]

Business as usual is the atmosphere with my SU contacts and other SU-dealers who have been selling B&W, Marantz, Denon, etc., all these months.

A lot of other SU products are made in Vietnam and China. I am not seeing complaints about their reliability.

Many of us have been saying the past few years that the AV7706 has performed “poorly” compared to other products like the Denon x3800 AVR, which is made in Vietnam. So perhaps this is just an isolated case specific to the AV7706 or maybe just your bad luck.

The major issue is service. When the 7705 failed after a little over five years, the first warranty service center was just plain unhelpful. The second one I spoke to, I had a long conversation with a very nice and helpful technician. He said that these units were in fact known for my problem and that parts availability was pretty much non existent and the boards I would need were NLA.

I then made the mistake of buying the 7706 which developed a very similar fault to the 7705 after three months. I sent it via my dealer with a nice covering letter and full contact information. I have heard nothing and nor has the dealer. Enquiries will be made after the holiday weekend as it is now past their stated 90 day window. That window itself is way long and not really acceptable for a three month old unit.

At the moment I have to advise members that purchases of Marantz products entail significant risk. The service they have provided me I regard as totally unacceptable.

So, I bought the AV 10 and hope it has long legs, but my choice was really only between the and Anthem. I think I made the better choice between the two. The AV 10 has had zero glitches and has performed perfectly and sounds a lot better then the 7705/7706.

The point is that the behavior I have experienced from Sound United, particularly Marantz has been outrageously bad and unacceptable. So I think any member has to be cautious about the purchase of any Marantz product currently.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The major issue is service.

Your case of repair service is lacking for sure. Have to agree. You’ve already mentioned this, but this is probably due to the lack of parts specific to the AV7706.

No point crying over spilled milk, but if you had asked us for our opinions months ago, we would’ve told you not to buy the AV7706.

We would have told you to get the AV10 or Denon/Marantz AVR that had much better measurements than the old AV7706.

If you wanted something made in Japan, it would be the Denon x4800, x6800 and up and Marantz Cinema 30 and 40.

 

[TLS Guy]

Your case of repair service is lacking for sure. Have to agree. You’ve already mentioned this, but this is probably due to the lack of parts specific to the AV7706.

No point crying over spilled milk, but if you had asked us for our opinions months ago, we would’ve told you not to buy the AV7706.

We would have told you to get the AV10 or Denon/Marantz AVR that had much better measurements than the old AV7706.

If you wanted something made in Japan, it would be the Denon x4800, x6800 and up and Marantz Cinema 30 and 40.

The problem is that I thought that it would be a good bet the 7706 would outlast me. I will be 79 in January so well past my LD50! However, I am very happy with the AV 10 and there will hopefully still be money left for my kids.

None of those models you mention could work in my system. The system was basically designed with Marantz AVPs in mind. There is no receiver in the world compatible with this system.

 

[lovinthehd]

The problem is that I thought that it would be a good bet the 7706 would outlast me. I will be 79 in January so well past my LD50! However, I am very happy with the AV 10 and there will hopefully still be money left for my kids.

None of those models you mention could work in my system. The system was basically designed with Marantz AVPs in mind. There is no receiver in the world compatible with this system.

Why wouldn't a flagship avr have same options as your pre-pro? What are they particularly?

 

[TLS Guy]

Why wouldn't a flagship avr have same options as your pre-pro? What are they particularly?

It is absolutely essential that the pre pro have both RCA and XLR on all outputs, as many channels have both in use. There are 18 power amp channels to be driven, and the amps for the front three require both RCA and XLR on the same channels, to drive the pro crossovers. The rear backs require XLRs, to drive the crossovers as they are active speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

It is absolutely essential that the pre pro have both RCA and XLR on all outputs, as many channels have both in use. There are 18 power amp channels to be driven, and the amps for the front three require both RCA and XLR on the same channels, to drive the pro crossovers. The rear backs require XLRs, to drive the crossovers as they are active speakers.

So your crossovers and amps can't deal with rca?

 

[TLS Guy]

So your crossovers and amps can't deal with rca?

Exactly, and if you did try to split the RCA outputs there would be inadequate voltage. This system is totally unlike any other members system on multiple levels. Power output is 3.2K watts total for a start, it has variable BSC which I came up with and JBL copied for a while. That is actually a major game changer and should be widely used, not just by me.

In addition the main speakers are dual TLs, as far as I know that was only done by the team that designed the legendary BBC Maida Vale BBC studio monitors and a very costly speaker that was designed by John Wright of TDL, right before his untimely death. I have not been able to find that any of those speakers survive.

The BBC monitors were designed by some of the most famous individuals in the history of audio. Four of the amp boards came my way and I have them put away as keepsakes. The designers were Peter Walker, Jim Rogers, Raymond Cooke and John Wright. These speakers are long dismantled as the BBC had to sell those studios to raise cash.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem is that I thought that it would be a good bet the 7706 would outlast me. I will be 79 in January so well past my LD50! However, I am very happy with the AV 10 and there will hopefully still be money left for my kids.

None of those models you mention could work in my system. The system was basically designed with Marantz AVPs in mind. There is no receiver in the world compatible with this system.

Well, you deserve the Marantz AV10.

I think many of us were just surprised you were sticking with the AV7706. But a higher power had other plans.

So glad you finally got what you deserved.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, you deserve the Marantz AV10.

I think many of us were just surprised you were sticking with the AV7706. But a higher power had other plans.

So glad you finally got what you deserved.

Not sure deserve it, but I am lucky enough to be able to afford it.

I know what I do deserve though, and that is a working AV 7706 or my money back. The worst feature of this whole saga, is Marantz not being able to repair a five year old receiver, and not repairing or communicating over the 7706 that failed at three months. That is what should concern members here, as that can not be considered in any way ethical business practice. It is far removed from it, and way wide of the mark.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah since it’s under warranty, Masimo/SU need to either repair it or send you a replacement AV7706 or equivalent AVP.

Exactly. My dealer is going to rattle their cage this week, before he leaves with his wife for Venice.
He has offered to pay me for the unit, but I have refused to let him. I would rather take the hit than him, if the worst comes to the worst. I do think members need to take this sorry tale on board, when considering purchases. I have no idea if all Sound United divisions are the same, but Marantz clearly have problems.

 

[dlaloum]

Exactly. My dealer is going to rattle their cage this week, before he leaves with his wife for Venice.
He has offered to pay me for the unit, but I have refused to let him. I would rather take the hit than him, if the worst comes to the worst. I do think members need to take this sorry tale on board, when considering purchases. I have no idea if all Sound United divisions are the same, but Marantz clearly have problems.

It isn't just SU... I have a similar issue with my Integra (Onkyo) DTR 70.4, where the DSP board failed (a known manufacturing fault) - but in between it being issued and failing in my home, the company changed ownership, and the local service agent could not get a replacement DSP board... it was around 5 years old.

The old Onkyo/Integra used to publish service manuals, the current organisation does not.

I have also not heard of any board replacements on the O/I AVR's - so far all the faults I have heard about have been resolved with a replacement unit.

It reminds me of the Motorola 6sigma analysis, where they worked out that simply replacing mobile phones was more economical for them than repairing....

We may have reached the stage where the marginal cost of repair is higher than a straight replacement (taking into account stocking costs, labour, etc...) - which effectively makes our AVR's (and AVP's) - disposable items.

I'm still holding onto my old DTR70.4 in the hope of at some stage repairing it, but right now it is a massive boat anchor.

Have D&M at least issued service manuals for the current generation gear?

 

[TLS Guy]

It isn't just SU... I have a similar issue with my Integra (Onkyo) DTR 70.4, where the DSP board failed (a known manufacturing fault) - but in between it being issued and failing in my home, the company changed ownership, and the local service agent could not get a replacement DSP board... it was around 5 years old.

The old Onkyo/Integra used to publish service manuals, the current organisation does not.

I have also not heard of any board replacements on the O/I AVR's - so far all the faults I have heard about have been resolved with a replacement unit.

It reminds me of the Motorola 6sigma analysis, where they worked out that simply replacing mobile phones was more economical for them than repairing....

We may have reached the stage where the marginal cost of repair is higher than a straight replacement (taking into account stocking costs, labour, etc...) - which effectively makes our AVR's (and AVP's) - disposable items.

I'm still holding onto my old DTR70.4 in the hope of at some stage repairing it, but right now it is a massive boat anchor.

Have D&M at least issued service manuals for the current generation gear?

The answer is NO service manuals, and none have been released for years. Part of the problem is that it is usually not as simple as just changing a board, and there are issues like flashing the BIOS.

I had a Panasonic disc player have the disc drive fail a few years ago. A new drive was available from Panasonic and I bought one. I installed it, but the unit did not work or respond to commands even.

So, I complained bitterly to Panasonic when they still had someone to complain to. After a lot of wrangling a nice tech sent me to the codes, and then connected to the Internet the tech initialized the new drive, and it has worked since, I think. Our eldest grandson has it now.

So repair service is not like it used to be, by a long shot. And it seems to me there is a downright conspiracy to make repair impossible. Your observation that these costly units are in effect disposable is on the money. However that is a disgrace and totally unacceptable and will eventually kill this great hobby. It is part of the resurgence of analog only systems, and this will continue I fear.

What we have now is totally unacceptable on multiple levels, dishonest and above all unethical.

 

[highfigh]

So repair service is not like it used to be, by a long shot. And it seems to me there is a downright conspiracy to make repair impossible. Your observation that these costly units are in effect disposable is on the money. However that is a disgrace and totally unacceptable and will eventually kill this great hobby. It is part of the resurgence of analog only systems, and this will continue I fear.

What we have now is totally unacceptable on multiple levels, dishonest and above all unethical.

Service of AV stopped being the same as in the past around 1995. They stopped holding online training after they ended in-person training WHERE SERVICE TECHS COULD NETWORK WITH OTHERS AND SHARE TIPS & TRICKS, which was extremely useful. They went to CD-based manuals and bulletins which made sense because they were shipping bulk paper, which is a waste of money. Then, they mandated that most (and eventually all) equipment be sent to regional service centers before defaulting to shipping refurbs as repacements.

If I buy new, I want a new piece unless they're willing to send a refund.

Ethics? We're dealing with MBAs counting beans, not normal people.

 

[TLS Guy]

Service of AV stopped being the same as in the past around 1995. They stopped holding online training after they ended in-person training WHERE SERVICE TECHS COULD NETWORK WITH OTHERS AND SHARE TIPS & TRICKS, which was extremely useful. They went to CD-based manuals and bulletins which made sense because they were shipping bulk paper, which is a waste of money. Then, they mandated that most (and eventually all) equipment be sent to regional service centers before defaulting to shipping refurbs as repacements.

If I buy new, I want a new piece unless they're willing to send a refund.

Ethics? We're dealing with MBAs counting beans, not normal people.

Boy you hit all those nails squarely on the head!

Everything you say is true, and exactly the untenable situation we have, which will destroy the market.

I think we need a change in law, that in units over a certain dollar value, equipment needs to have a diagnostic port with codes open to all. We had this chaos with car electronics back in the late seventies and early eighties. It was an absolute nightmare. So Congress enacted the OBD-2 codes that had to be accessible to all. That was a huge gamechanger. Trouble is they forgot to make sure any future codes were accessible to all, and came up with those darn e-codes.

 

[dlaloum]

Boy you hit all those nails squarely on the head!

Everything you say is true, and exactly the untenable situation we have, which will destroy the market.

I think we need a change in law, that in units over a certain dollar value, equipment needs to have a diagnostic port with codes open to all. We had this chaos with car electronics back in the late seventies and early eighties. It was an absolute nightmare. So Congress enacted the OBD-2 codes that had to be accessible to all. That was a huge gamechanger. Trouble is they forgot to make sure any future codes were accessible to all, and came up with those darn e-codes.

In the automotive world there are also (region specific) laws with regards to having parts available for a certain number of years (typically 10) etc...

 

[TLS Guy]

In the automotive world there are also (region specific) laws with regards to having parts available for a certain number of years (typically 10) etc...

They have a seven year law here, but is never enforced, as running out of parts gives them a let out of jail card.

 

[highfigh]

Boy you hit all those nails squarely on the head!

Everything you say is true, and exactly the untenable situation we have, which will destroy the market.

I think we need a change in law, that in units over a certain dollar value, equipment needs to have a diagnostic port with codes open to all. We had this chaos with car electronics back in the late seventies and early eighties. It was an absolute nightmare. So Congress enacted the OBD-2 codes that had to be accessible to all. That was a huge gamechanger. Trouble is they forgot to make sure any future codes were accessible to all, and came up with those darn e-codes.

It's not dollar amount that determines whether something will have a diagnostic port, it needs to be designed to have a processor and the ability to have/use that port. If it's a simple design, the port won't show much in detail. Also, there's a fair amount of equipment that has the ability to show a limited range of codes through power indicator flashes. Even that would be helpful if it were to be required, but like a lot of items, knowledge of how to repair is needed, or it will be a case of wannabe service people pulling out the proverbial 'parts cannon' and heading toward frustration because their process of replacing several parts at one time doesn't allow certainty in determining the cause of the trouble.

What auto electronics are you referring to, OBD I? I had an early-'80s Olds Cutlass and at one point, the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) failed,so I called a friend who was working at the GM Desert Proving Ground for info. He referred to a diagnostic task that referred to ~40% throttle position and at the time, I didn't know how they would find that and he explained that the ECM had a bit of control over the engine but really, not much. He said the next system would be a lot more capable but it wasn't ready for prime time (IIRC, it was around 1990 and OBD II wasn't being used at that point). CARB (California Air Research Board) is the group that was initially behind the first mandates, national mandates came later.

It's available to all, but 'all' need to have the proper diagnostic equpment and the knowledge to use it correctly.

However, the codes don't give all of the info when a problem arises, it's just a hint. The DATA and knowing what to do with it is where solutions can be found.

 

[TLS Guy]

It's not dollar amount that determines whether something will have a diagnostic port, it needs to be designed to have a processor and the ability to have/use that port. If it's a simple design, the port won't show much in detail. Also, there's a fair amount of equipment that has the ability to show a limited range of codes through power indicator flashes. Even that would be helpful if it were to be required, but like a lot of items, knowledge of how to repair is needed, or it will be a case of wannabe service people pulling out the proverbial 'parts cannon' and heading toward frustration because their process of replacing several parts at one time doesn't allow certainty in determining the cause of the trouble.

What auto electronics are you referring to, OBD I? I had an early-'80s Olds Cutlass and at one point, the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) failed,so I called a friend who was working at the GM Desert Proving Ground for info. He referred to a diagnostic task that referred to ~40% throttle position and at the time, I didn't know how they would find that and he explained that the ECM had a bit of control over the engine but really, not much. He said the next system would be a lot more capable but it wasn't ready for prime time (IIRC, it was around 1990 and OBD II wasn't being used at that point). CARB (California Air Research Board) is the group that was initially behind the first mandates, national mandates came later.

It's available to all, but 'all' need to have the proper diagnostic equpment and the knowledge to use it correctly.

However, the codes don't give all of the info when a problem arises, it's just a hint. The DATA and knowing what to do with it is where solutions can be found.

The OBD II codes cover the most important parts of the engine management system, and by law there is a diagnostic port somewhere under the dash around the steering wheel. Sometimes you have to hunt for it. Small OBD II scanners are now fairly inexpensive. I carry one and a code book in my glove compartment at all times. It has been really helpful and I have been able to help others with cars in parking lots that won't start. OBD II scanners are available from all auto parts stores and online. Using these scanners is easy and very straightforward.

Here is one.

 

[highfigh]

The OBD II codes cover the most important parts of the engine management system, and by law there is a diagnostic port somewhere under the dash around the steering wheel. Sometimes you have to hunt for it. Small OBD II scanners are now fairly inexpensive. I carry one and a code book in my glove compartment at all times. It has been really helpful and I have been able to help others with cars in parking lots that won't start. OBD II scanners are available from all auto parts stores and online. Using these scanners is easy and very straightforward.

Here is one.

I know- I was trained by Mastercraft Boat company, but it was before OBD II or Can Bus was used in boats, which now have O2 sensors and catalytic converters, as well as most of the usual sensors found in cars- this even applies to outboards. Many use TBW (Throttle By Wire), as well. Mercury has a system called DTS- Digital Throttle and Shift which, IMO, will make in-shop diagnostics a thing of the past because the marine industry doesn't like to pay well enough on average and it's not seen as a career path. OTOH, an above average boat mechanic can make $100K/year.

I prefer data over a 'winky-blinky' code tool. It really helped when the engine in my van was shutting down after taking my foot off of the accelerator pedal. My immediate thoughts- IAC or battery and I called the same friend who had worked for GM and he asked "Why?" when I told him what I suspected- he agreed and I was able to use a SnapOn diagnostic scanner. I functioned the IAC and found no problem, then checked the tech tips- that agreed, too. I changed the battery and fixed the problem. I had already checked fuel pressure in real time and used my scanner to read the data.

 

[TLS Guy]

Harmon completed their purchase of Sound United 10 hours ago. This has been completed sooner than I expected.

Hopefully this will end the current absolute shambles which is what Sound United has descended to.