Center channel - yea or nay?

[tentaguasu]

I've seen heated debates about whether one should even have a center channel in a home theater system. Most insist you should, but a vocal minority is dead set against it. The argument (see below) is basically that.

Two specific questions:

1. I'm building two speakers - instead of buying a center, should I go ahead and build a third to keep the same tone, etc?

2. Should I just skip the center completely?

I'll have a 15x18 theater room.

Here's a post that sums up the "anti-center" group pretty well:

"I agree with Mr. Guttenberg. For those of you that are complaining that you do not hear good dialogue and do not get a good center image with the center channel turned off and redirected to the L/R speakers, something is wrong with your set-up, your ears, or your system.
Turning off the center channel does not lessen the amount of sound that was meant to go to the center channel, it has all been redirected to the L/R channels. If you cannot hear the dialogue over the action then that is how it was mixed in the studio, it's not because you turned off the center channel and are no longer getting that signal.
I think Mr. Guttenberg's point of the article is mostly about the diminished sound quality that is inherent with the center speaker. Even a 'matched' center speaker sounds nothing like the L/R speakers because of the cabinet shape/size, the orientation of the drivers (even if the drivers are identical), and the placement of the center speaker which causes a huge tonal hump around the 200hz range (this is part of the cause for that boxy sound of Denzel's voice). When the L/R speakers are set-up properly they will make Denzel's voice sound more natural and will still sound centered in the TV.
I have the Studio line of JBL speakers. L/R: S312's, C: S-Center. Even though the center speaker is 'matched', there is no doubt that the L/R speakers sound much better than the center does. If you're really into sound quality, why muddy it up by using a speaker that puts out inferior sound."

 

[mike c]

build a third. it's the right thing to do.

 

[basspig]

I've got some comments to add to this, since I've recently added a center channel, using identical drivers and cabinet design, to my theater, for the purpose of having proper 5.1 playback to aid me in evaluating my sound mastering for the DVDs/BDs that I produce.

I have a somewhat unique situation with my "stereo" playback system, in that it's equipped with the Carver Sonic Hologram Generator, an innovation of Bob Carver, circa 1982, which has been imitated, but never successfully duplicated in digital form. With the Carver Hologram, I get a very real center channel, just as if the center channel speaker were active, and I tend to find that the sound is more natural. When movie soundtrack sound eminates, actually, from my center channel, it doesn't strike me as sounding quite as seamlessly-integrated. Dialog on SOME discs seems too loud and even a bit squawky. However, on a classical music concert disc that I authored, the center channel sounded fine and uncolored.

I can safely say that with a phase-coherent setup, a center channel is unnecessary, except if you're serving multiple viewers, in which case only a minority are in the phase-coherent sweet spot. In such cases, the center channel provides better imaging to off-center seats.

 

[markw]

Didn't we just go through this in another fairly lengthy thread?

Weren't you a participant in that? Yes, I think you were.

Poor memory? Try the search function.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57472

Well, looky here. You'll never guess who statred that thread!

Somehow, I think you're milking the bull here.

 

[just-some-guy]

years ago, i had a simple stereo setup. i had the speakers placed perfectly, and my seat/couch was right next to the back wall. i sat dead center. at the time, i didn't even know what surround sound was. this was about 1990. but i liked good sound.

so i'm watchin a movie. i could have been apacolyps now, idr. anyway. the action started up. all of a sudden, i heard sounds coming from behind me. i was like . it was the original pro logic decoding itself in the room.

anyway. i had no idea what a center channel was. but the tv was talking to me, like it was a speaker.

i don't know if this still applies with the newer formats these days. but i think if you have everything set up correctly, including your head. you don't need a center. my understanding is that a center is for people sitting off center. or a less correct setup.

again, idk if this applies to the newer formats. i have never tried it. my center does a great job for what i hired it to do.

 

[tentaguasu]

Somehow, I think you're milking the bull here.

Sorry if I've been repetitive, no bad intentions at all though. I'm just getting started and I've tried to absorb so much information that sometimes I do unintentionally chase my tail a bit.

The deal is I was just about to buy a center channel speaker when I came across a professional article dealing (in length) with why one shouldn't get one.

Thinking back, previously I had assumed you having one was better, but wondered if you could get away without having one.

This other post made me question whether (even with unlimited budget) one should get a center.

Again, apologies for repetitiveness, but no bad intent on my part.

 

[basspig]

Think of it this way: you can always turn it off or mute the center and change the player's setup to downmix center to L & R. You get to have the best of both worlds (and the added burden of decision, decisions.)

 

[Adam]

I agree with what's been said here. If you have good imaging with the front two speakers at your listening position, then the center channel isn't going to add much value. However, if (like me) you or other people sometimes sit off to the side of the TV, then the center channel can be nice.

 

[Mika75]

I think it may have something to do with the Center being a mono signal... Stereo signals seem to float with the added spatial information.

 

[Patrick_Wolf]

If movie theaters have 3 front speakers (probably identical) then I say yea.

 

[markw]

Maybe you're just milking yopurself.

Sorry if I've been repetitive, no bad intentions at all though. I'm just getting started and I've tried to absorb so much information that sometimes I do unintentionally chase my tail a bit.

The deal is I was just about to buy a center channel speaker when I came across a professional article dealing (in length) with why one shouldn't get one.

Thinking back, previously I had assumed you having one was better, but wondered if you could get away without having one.

This other post made me question whether (even with unlimited budget) one should get a center.

Again, apologies for repetitiveness, but no bad intent on my part.

Personally, I think what you want to believe and what you do believe are at odds with other.

Since you've already explored the options and seem pretty well versed in what the two sides say, perhaps it's time for you to man up make your own decision. Don't expect words to tell you what you hear.

To quote an old Punch Magazine, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

[fredk]

Moooo...

Roughly translated:

I got no milk buddy, but don't you touch my center channel!

 

[GimpDaddy]

For regular TV as well as movies, when I take out the center speaker and move the vocals to the two fronts the sound stage is completely altered and not in a good way.

 

[CraigV]

I use a pair of Omni 550's for the front, and no center - haven't used one for a while, and don't miss it at all.

 

[Patrick_Wolf]

I use a pair of Omni 550's for the front, and no center - haven't used one for a while, and don't miss it at all.

I wonder if having another Omni 550 for a center would change your mind.

 

[Mika75]

If movie theaters have 3 front speakers (probably identical) then I say yea.

Conventional Theaters have a much larger area to cover...ohh and it's also directly behind the screen, so perfect localisation

 

[cvcgolf]

You can watch a movie different ways.

-Audio from the television itself
-Stereo
-5.1 surround

Which one do you think sounds better?

 

[septim]

I have my setup with only two fronts. For one thing there is not the greatest spot to put the center, also I find that when you don't have a center the voices sound like they are in the room with you rather than localized all from the center speaker. Then again these are by far the nicest speakers I own and have not tried an identical center. (although I'm planning to shortly)

 

[Patrick_Wolf]

Conventional Theaters have a much larger area to cover...ohh and it's also directly behind the screen, so perfect localisation

True, but from what I've seen most setups don't even have their L/R speakers aligned with the middle of the screen anyway. The screen is usually placed higher. So if you went the phantom center route localisation wouldn't really be any better than with a competent, properly angled center; which has the added bonus of increasing the soundstage substantially.

 

[3db]

Center channels are very helpful in teh case of odd listening position form the TV/display. Thats when a center channel comes into its own. But if the geometry is setup properly with the mains flanking the screen equidistant and if the listening position is also centered witth respect to the screen, then a center channel is most definately NOT required. I was fortuneat that in my old home, the geometry was perfect. I had to remove the center channel while trying to sell my last home and I did not miss anything. Thats becuase my mains imaged so well and anchored the sound to the screen. But like I said, I had the geometry set-up perfectly.