Center Channel Acoustic Challenges?

[JDM3030]

So to lay the background... My current setup includes the following in a 7.2 setup.
2 Front: Klipsch RP-260F
4 Surrounds: RP-150M
Center: RP-250C
2 Subs: SVS PB-1000
Front Amps: Crown XLS 1502 in stereo
Center Amp: Crown XLS 1002 in stereo (only using 1 of amps)
AVR: Yamaha RX-A880
Room: ~18'x19' with 7.5' ceilings
Treatments: GIK bass traps on 2 front corners plus GIK treatments on side walls for first reflections; Floors are carpeted

I am very happy with my system for the most part with the exception of my center channel. I like to listen to movies very loud sometimes and I feel there are times my center channel starts to sound like it is struggling to maintain clarity at higher volumes. Adding the Crown amp to power the RP-250C center helped but it's still not ideal. When I run room correction with my AVR, the center AVR adds a little bump around 780 hz and makes a cut around 120 hz (each almost 5 db). I realize there is only so much I can take from that. If you look at my entertainment stand (pictured), you can see my center channel sits below my TV screen within the stand resting on a couple acoustic pads tilting the speaker up a little. I have considered that perhaps I could upgrade to an RP-450C with the notion that it may be able to handle louder volumes with greater clarity. In addition, I measured and I could fit that speaker nicely within my stand where the 250C rests now. However, it would be tight and the rear of the speaker would be much closer to the back wall of the stand which only goes up the back of the stand in the center behind the speaker.

My question is this...
Would upgrading to an RP-450C add the clarity I seek at higher volumes or would placing it in that stand create additional issues because the speaker has no room to breath? Alternatively, would adding some absorption material behind the RP-250C help address the lack of clarity at higher volumes? Basically, am I better off with a 250C that has "some" room to breath on a shelf or would the 450C improve the sound quality regardless? I should mention that the 250C sounds decent to me at lower or more reasonable volumes. How do people typically handle center channels when considering the acoustic issues created by placing the speaker on a shelf like I did? Taking the speaker out of the stand is not an option for me and I do want to stick with either the 250C or 450C in order to remain consistent with the rest of my speakers. Am I just stuck with some issues if I stuck on a shelf?

 

[snakeeyes]

So to lay the background... My current setup includes the following in a 7.2 setup.
2 Front: Klipsch RP-260F
4 Surrounds: RP-150M
Center: RP-250C
2 Subs: SVS PB-1000
Front Amps: Crown XLS 1502 in stereo
Center Amp: Crown XLS 1002 in stereo (only using 1 of amps)
AVR: Yamaha RX-A880
Room: ~18'x19' with 7.5' ceilings
Treatments: GIK bass traps on 2 front corners plus GIK treatments on side walls for first reflections; Floors are carpeted

I am very happy with my system for the most part with the exception of my center channel. I like to listen to movies very loud sometimes and I feel there are times my center channel starts to sound like it is struggling to maintain clarity at higher volumes. Adding the Crown amp to power the RP-250C center helped but it's still not ideal. When I run room correction with my AVR, the center AVR adds a little bump around 780 hz and makes a cut around 120 hz (each almost 5 db). I realize there is only so much I can take from that. If you look at my entertainment stand (pictured), you can see my center channel sits below my TV screen within the stand resting on a couple acoustic pads tilting the speaker up a little. I have considered that perhaps I could upgrade to an RP-450C with the notion that it may be able to handle louder volumes with greater clarity. In addition, I measured and I could fit that speaker nicely within my stand where the 250C rests now. However, it would be tight and the rear of the speaker would be much closer to the back wall of the stand which only goes up the back of the stand in the center behind the speaker.

My question is this...
Would upgrading to an RP-450C add the clarity I seek at higher volumes or would placing it in that stand create additional issues because the speaker has no room to breath? Alternatively, would adding some absorption material behind the RP-250C help address the lack of clarity at higher volumes? Basically, am I better off with a 250C that has "some" room to breath on a shelf or would the 450C improve the sound quality regardless? I should mention that the 250C sounds decent to me at lower or more reasonable volumes. How do people typically handle center channels when considering the acoustic issues created by placing the speaker on a shelf like I did? Taking the speaker out of the stand is not an option for me and I do want to stick with either the 250C or 450C in order to remain consistent with the rest of my speakers. Am I just stuck with some issues if I stuck on a shelf?

It usually comes down to the center since it’s 70% of the sound in 5.1. The larger one probably is better.

What’s the crossover set at for your center on Yamaha? I’m guessing 80hz or 90hz?

Also you probably should be turning off YPAO volume (unless you are playing low volume) and set dynamic range to max.

 

[JDM3030]

It usually comes down to the center since it’s 70% of the sound in 5.1. The larger one probably is better.

What’s the crossover set at for your center on Yamaha? I’m guessing 80hz or 90hz?

Also you probably should be turning off YPAO volume (unless you are playing low volume) and set dynamic range to max.

I use 60 hz for my front mains. I use 90 for the surrounds. I have used either 80 or 90 for the center.
I do have dynamic range to max.
Why should I turn off the YPAO volume? What harm does it do?

 

[ryanosaur]

So to lay the background... My current setup includes the following in a 7.2 setup.
2 Front: Klipsch RP-260F
4 Surrounds: RP-150M
Center: RP-250C
2 Subs: SVS PB-1000
Front Amps: Crown XLS 1502 in stereo
Center Amp: Crown XLS 1002 in stereo (only using 1 of amps)
AVR: Yamaha RX-A880
Room: ~18'x19' with 7.5' ceilings
Treatments: GIK bass traps on 2 front corners plus GIK treatments on side walls for first reflections; Floors are carpeted

I am very happy with my system for the most part with the exception of my center channel. I like to listen to movies very loud sometimes and I feel there are times my center channel starts to sound like it is struggling to maintain clarity at higher volumes. Adding the Crown amp to power the RP-250C center helped but it's still not ideal. When I run room correction with my AVR, the center AVR adds a little bump around 780 hz and makes a cut around 120 hz (each almost 5 db). I realize there is only so much I can take from that. If you look at my entertainment stand (pictured), you can see my center channel sits below my TV screen within the stand resting on a couple acoustic pads tilting the speaker up a little. I have considered that perhaps I could upgrade to an RP-450C with the notion that it may be able to handle louder volumes with greater clarity. In addition, I measured and I could fit that speaker nicely within my stand where the 250C rests now. However, it would be tight and the rear of the speaker would be much closer to the back wall of the stand which only goes up the back of the stand in the center behind the speaker.

My question is this...
Would upgrading to an RP-450C add the clarity I seek at higher volumes or would placing it in that stand create additional issues because the speaker has no room to breath? Alternatively, would adding some absorption material behind the RP-250C help address the lack of clarity at higher volumes? Basically, am I better off with a 250C that has "some" room to breath on a shelf or would the 450C improve the sound quality regardless? I should mention that the 250C sounds decent to me at lower or more reasonable volumes. How do people typically handle center channels when considering the acoustic issues created by placing the speaker on a shelf like I did? Taking the speaker out of the stand is not an option for me and I do want to stick with either the 250C or 450C in order to remain consistent with the rest of my speakers. Am I just stuck with some issues if I stuck on a shelf?

How audible the distortion actually is, that is caused by having the center speaker stashed in your cubby, is hard to tell without taking some better measurements with REW, for example. Depending on what all you have going on, there, you are definitely getting diffraction from the speaker being placed inside, and I assume you may be choking the port to some extent due to that placement as well (though that should not be affecting clarity so much as it will affect overall performance).
If you can’t or won’t reconsider how your speakers are set up, it may very well not matter what you do in terms of replacing it. I like the idea of getting the biggest speakers for your room, but proper placement is much more important. As it is now, I think you will need to play with your EQ and speaker levels to help you balance the sound.
You should look at the report here at AH, and follow up video from Gene about Speaker Grilles On or Off... the ultimate message is that placement is more vital of a concern for sound quality. Good info and examples there.
Best,
R

 

[JDM3030]

How audible the distortion actually is, that is caused by having the center speaker stashed in your cubby, is hard to tell without taking some better measurements with REW, for example. Depending on what all you have going on, there, you are definitely getting diffraction from the speaker being placed inside, and I assume you may be choking the port to some extent due to that placement as well (though that should not be affecting clarity so much as it will affect overall performance).
If you can’t or won’t reconsider how your speakers are set up, it may very well not matter what you do in terms of replacing it. I like the idea of getting the biggest speakers for your room, but proper placement is much more important. As it is now, I think you will need to play with your EQ and speaker levels to help you balance the sound.
You should look at the report here at AH, and follow up video from Gene about Speaker Grilles On or Off... the ultimate message is that placement is more vital of a concern for sound quality. Good info and examples there.
Best,
R

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe lack of clarity isn't the best way to say it. It sounds border line distorted and strained at higher volumes. However, I know the amp is not clipping. That is why I thought maybe I have just pushed the speaker to the limit of what is can do.

I feel like with the smaller 250C, the speaker has more room to breath within the stand and there is more room behind the port in the rear. The bigger 450C would probably help the speaker keep up at louder volume, but there would be less room to breath behind the port (maybe only 2-3 inches). My gut tells me the current distortion I hear is caused by the speaker being pushed beyond its optimal output. However, I fear a bigger speaker will create new issues because of the acoustics inside the stand. I have considered picking up a 450C with a 30 day return policy and just trying it out. That's probably the best way but I didn't want to go through all that and pay to ship it back if others could weigh in with their thoughts. I don't want to waste time and money. I have seen the 450C as low as $400 open box including shipping. I'd just sell the 250C after that hoping to get maybe $200.

I should stress that the issues I hear only occur at high volumes. Dialogue starts to sound less natural, more distorted, and perhaps more compressed. Again, I'm certain it's not the amp clipping though (the crown shows when this is happening). It's not a super noticeable thing but I definitely hear it.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I believe the 450 or the 504 would definitely be a better CC speaker. I would also consider using it as a tv stand. I’ve seen lots of klipsch centers used a stands.
You could also mount the tv on the wall and have plenty of room to do whatever you want.
My display is on the wall, and the whole top of my EC is open for any center I want.

 

[snakeeyes]

I use 60 hz for my front mains. I use 90 for the surrounds. I have used either 80 or 90 for the center.
I do have dynamic range to max.
Why should I turn off the YPAO volume? What harm does it do?

Usually one would calculate the distance from the speakers and how many decibels you like to listen to. Anyhow I’m not saying EQ or sound modes or YPAO Volume aren’t fun but for loud full sound they could be turned off to start with. My experience on RXA2060 is I prefer YPAO Volume off in a larger room. I have it on though in my bedroom on my RXA770.

 

[JDM3030]

I believe the 450 or the 504 would definitely be a better CC speaker. I would also consider using it as a tv stand. I’ve seen lots of klipsch centers used a stands.
You could also mount the tv on the wall and have plenty of room to do whatever you want.
My display is on the wall, and the whole top of my EC is open for any center I want.

Mounting the TV on the wall is an interesting idea I had not considered for whatever reason. In that case, I woudl put the larger center speaker on top of the stand on top of a couple acoustic pads slightly inclined up. Not a bad thought.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Mounting the TV on the wall is an interesting idea I had not considered for whatever reason. In that case, I woudl put the larger center speaker on top of the stand on top of a couple acoustic pads slightly inclined up. Not a bad thought.

For sure. If you’re not sitting too far away it’s great. I need a bigger tv but wall mounting saved a lot of space. Also, it will raise your cc up a little higher and put it closer to the same horizontal plane as the LR.

 

[ryanosaur]

I can't and won't speak to the quality of Klipsch speakers, other than to say they are known to have better than average sensitivity, even if the correct number is lower than the advertised number. Assuming they are 92 dB sensitivity, for example, you would probably never use more than 64w at Dynamic Peaks... this is very loud at ~110dB! If your current center is really sh!tting the bed at at reference level, you should absolutely upgrade...
Not just the speaker but your set-up.
William's advice is great. Even if you can just get the center out of the cubby and on top... wall mount the TV would be great, and just pull everything away from the wall a little to give the port more room.

 

[ryanosaur]

I can't and won't speak to the quality of Klipsch speakers, other than to say they are known to have better than average sensitivity, even if the correct number is lower than the advertised number. Assuming they are 92 dB sensitivity, for example, you would probably never use more than 64w at Dynamic Peaks... this is very loud at ~110dB! If your current center is really sh!tting the bed at at reference level, you should absolutely upgrade...
Not just the speaker but your set-up.
William's advice is great. Even if you can just get the center out of the cubby and on top... wall mount the TV would be great, and just pull everything away from the wall a little to give the port more room.

Check out the Video Secu line... I have the dual swing arm model MW380B3, for example, works great!

 

[shadyJ]

Agreed, it may be the location of the speaker that is contributing to the problems. It could also be the basic design. I would be looking at 3-way centers that avoids off-axis cancellation that is going to be a problem for most two-way center speakers. Maybe take a look at the 3-way center speakers from Monoprice Monolith, Infinity Reference, or Paradigm Premier. Audioholics has a host of articles discussing the disadvantages of traditional center-speaker designs such as yours: Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs, Center Speaker Design Additional Considerations, and Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs - An Alternate Perspective. Another good candidate for as center that avoids these problems is the Hsu Research CCB-8.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, Center speakers again.

As so often stated they are the most difficult to design. They have to be small and powerful, that is a huge design problem. Horizontal MTM is really a problem. Placement is also a problem as there are so often unhelpful proximate boundaries.

I think you can make a really good case for coaxial drivers in centers. Three ways are an option, but the mid needs to carry the speech discrimination band at power and there are few good candidates.

It is not an easy problem and hearing a really good center is very uncommon. A good and powerful one even rarer. At Eagan I have been using one 4" full ranger JW module as a center. I have to say it is and has done a fabulous job. Speech clarity with natural timbre has been superb. It actually is one of the best I have heard. We are are in our quad 4 townhome until early October, so high powers and concert hall levels are not an option at present. But actually those modules are a pretty sensitive and crossed over I think take quite a bit of power. There is no where near enough R & D devoted to full range drivers, and centers are an absolute reason to do so.

Yes, and you do want to turn off all types of Eq, that can easily over load power bands where there is a boost going on.

 

[JDM3030]

Agreed, it may be the location of the speaker that is contributing to the problems. It could also be the basic design. I would be looking at 3-way centers that avoids off-axis cancellation that is going to be a problem for most two-way center speakers. Maybe take a look at the 3-way center speakers from Monoprice Monolith, Infinity Reference, or Paradigm Premier. Audioholics has a host of articles discussing the disadvantages of traditional center-speaker designs such as yours: Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs, Center Speaker Design Additional Considerations, and Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs - An Alternate Perspective. Another good candidate for as center that avoids these problems is the Hsu Research CCB-8.

Understood. I get the 3-way issues. However, would I not be introducing other issues by having a center that does not match the mains?

 

[JDM3030]

Yes, and you do want to turn off all types of Eq, that can easily over load power bands where there is a boost going on.

In terms of EQ, wehat I typically do is run the YPAO with 8 multipoint samples.
I then take the flat EQ provided by Yamama and tweak it manually. I focus on any boosts prescribed by YPAO and take a little out of them depending on how much of a boost is being recommended. If it is a 1 db boost, I might leave it alone. If it calls for a 4 db boost somewhere on the curve, I might cut it back to 2 db. I typically leave the cuts alone. I tried this with the center channel as well in particular. In the end, I feel like my manually tweaked EQ sound better than the pass-thru non-EQ's sound. If I see a larger boost, I have bigger issues going on.

 

[shadyJ]

Understood. I get the 3-way issues. However, would I not be introducing other issues by having a center that does not match the mains?

Those speakers should have a roughly neutral response, and so long as the center also carries a neutral response, the differences should be slight. But don't make the mistake of thinking your present center matches your mains; it doesn't. It couldn't and neither could any other center speaker of the same design, on account of how radically different the off-axis response is going to be.

 

[JDM3030]

Those speakers should have a roughly neutral response, and so long as the center also carries a neutral response, the differences should be slight. But don't make the mistake of thinking your present center matches your mains; it doesn't. It couldn't and neither could any other center speaker of the same design, on account of how radically different the off-axis response is going to be.

Understood. Makes sense.

 

[JDM3030]

So I ended up pulling the trigger on a larger center channel. I will have 60 days to return it and it will cost me $10 to ship back. So now it is just a matter of trying it out in a couple scenarios to see if it addresses my concerns and improves the sound clarity at higher volumes.

I figure I can set it up in one of a number of ways...
1) Mount the TV and put the center speaker on top of my TV stand.

2) Put the center speaker where the current speaker resides on the 2nd shelf below the TV. Move my PS4 console somewhere else (no sure where).

3) Build or buy a riser for the TV to sit on top of the center speaker on top of the TV stand. It will need to be a strong stand to support the TV while being wide enough to wrap around the center speaker horizontally.

4) Put the center where the current speaker resides and buy a smaller TV riser so I can fit the PS4 console under it.

 

[snakeeyes]

So I ended up pulling the trigger on a larger center channel. I will have 60 days to return it and it will cost me $10 to ship back. So now it is just a matter of trying it out in a couple scenarios to see if it addresses my concerns and improves the sound clarity at higher volumes.

I figure I can set it up in one of a number of ways...
1) Mount the TV and put the center speaker on top of my TV stand.

2) Put the center speaker where the current speaker resides on the 2nd shelf below the TV. Move my PS4 console somewhere else (no sure where).

3) Build or buy a riser for the TV to sit on top of the center speaker on top of the TV stand. It will need to be a strong stand to support the TV while being wide enough to wrap around the center speaker horizontally.

4) Put the center where the current speaker resides and buy a smaller TV riser so I can fit the PS4 console under it.

Option 1 is probably the way to go if you are able to mount the tv at a comfortable viewing height so you aren’t straining your neck.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I vote #1 first and then #3. Can’t remember super clearly but seems like where your current center is, should be used for something else. A new amp maybe? Lol