Center cancels out sub!?

[debs67]

Hi!
My Diamond 9CM center speaker manual,says I should set it to large,the auto set up on my Yamaha RXV-650,also sets it as large...but when I follow this (and I might add the center sounds more full on large) my subwoofer either does not switch on,or is on but doesn't seem to be working.But when I switch the center to small,the sub works again.My sub is Yamaha YST-SW215.
I know the obvious answer is keep it on small,but I need to know why!?
My word I'm tweaked out!
Thanks,
Debs

 

[zumbo]

This may help.

 

[Takeereasy]

Hi Debs, I think that the problem you are facing is that by setting the speakers to large you are in fact sending all of the bass to them. The receiver puts out signal from 20hz to 20k hz, and when you tell it that your speakers are large it sends all of that info to your speakers and none to the sub. That is why your sub won't put out any bass. When you tell it that your speakers are small then the receiver uses its built in crossover to split up the signal between your sub and the speakers, and your sub will start putting out the bass you want. Another thing to make note of is that even if your sub detects a signal and turns on when you have your speakers set to large, you still might not feel any bass coming out, this is becase the hz are so low, probably somewhere between 16 and 25 hz, that your sub can not reproduce the sound with enough pressure to make it felt. Those hz are very deep and resounding, usually only found in action flicks, and are the domain of the pricier subs. To be honest you probably can't even hear these tones, just feel them.

Your Diamond center channel looks awesome, but it is only rated as going down to 70hz. I think you are in the same situation I was in. I have a pretty darn big center too, and the manufacturer told me to go ahead and set it at large, but it was a mistake. I got much better performance crossing it over at about 80hz and letting the sub handle it from there. I would suggest the same crossover I use for you as that particular spec of our speakers is pretty similar.

By the way all of the info I wrote is contained in the article Zumbo linked you to, and surmized much better I might add. Almost like the guy who wrote it knew what he was talking about. Almost. JK.

 

[debs67]

Thanks guys!
I read the article and it really does seem simple!!! Thanks Zumbo!
Takeereasy,you made it seem even more simple!!!
I'm obviously going to have to find out for myself all the settings including crossovers and speaker size etc...as the manufacturers advice for the speakers and the receiver settings are really not doing me any favours!!!
One more question!
When I set all my speakers to small except the centre speaker,the sub still doesn't kick in,it doesn't even turn on! Why would that be? The center can't handle all those low frequencies can it? Then as soon as I change it to small the sub turns on!
Anyway,I have them now all on small and the crossover at 90 at the moment,I don't know if you have seen my other thread,but I'm having a problem with my speakers banging when I skip scenes on a DVD (only happens when using the DVD) and I'm not sure how to illiminate it!?
Tweak tweak tweak!! It's fun though!!! But my husband thinks I'm mad!!!
Thanks again!
Debs

 

[zumbo]

When I set all my speakers to small except the centre speaker,the sub still doesn't kick in,it doesn't even turn on! Why would that be? The center can't handle all those low frequencies can it? Then as soon as I change it to small the sub turns on!

The center needs to be set to small. No frequencies below your setting of 90Hz will be sent to it.

 

[Yamahaluver]

The center sounds the best when set to LARGE, that way, no lower frequency vocals go to the sub thereby creating artificial boominess in male voice, in your case switch off the Yamaha sub's standy, this is what is creating the problem.

 

[zumbo]

Frequency response is 70hz-24khz. I don't believe Large is a good idea.

 

[rgriffin25]

I agree with Zumbo, set the sub to small. You might check your settings to see if the subwoofer is configured properly.

 

[zumbo]

I agree with Zumbo, set the sub to small. You might check your settings to see if the subwoofer is configured properly.

rgriffin25 means the center.

 

[warpdrive]

OK try this:

- make sure all your speakers are set to small, set the crossover to 80Hz
- run the Yamaha YPAO auto setup, but set it to skip the step called "Speaker Size" because the receiver may decide that your speakers are LARGE which is no really the case (shame on you Yamaha for programming it like that). Actually, you can also SKIP the step for "Wiring" and "Distance" too, because your receiver did those steps the last time you ran the setup. In my receiver, I actually found the receiver autosetup WANTED to set my center to LARGE, but it stopped doing that if I skipped all the YPAO steps except "Levels" (and "EQ" on mine)

Try it again, if the sub still does not turn on, go up to your sub, and turn DOWN the volume(level) control on your sub by a 1/4 to 1/8 turn, and then run the auto setup again. If it's too low, your receiver will abort with an error, so turn it back up.... but if it completes the process properly, test to see if the sub is turning on automatically now. Also, confirm that your center channel is still set to SMALL.

I was finding on my sub that the receiver was not sending enough of a signal to activate my sub, so I turned down the level on my sub, and then the receiver is forced to send a higher voltage signal to my sub, thus activating it more easily.

 

[rgriffin25]

rgriffin25 means the center.

Thanks Zumbo, I guess it was too early to post.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would think that if all the speakers are on large, the descrete lows in each channel will go to them. But, if you also have LFE on also, only the frequency specifically mixed to that LFE channel will go to the sub, hence the perception of loss of the sub.
When the speakers are on small, those channel lows will also go to the sub.
Since the sub can better reproduce the lows than most main speakers, and the level of the sub is usually higher than the main speakers, the effect will be more pronounced.

 

[mtrycrafts]

When I set all my speakers to small except the centre speaker,the sub still doesn't kick in,it doesn't even turn on! Why would that be? The center can't handle all those low frequencies can it? Then as soon as I change it to small the sub turns on!
Debs

Is it possible that the receiver also turns off the LFE when the center is on large?
Or, the source has limited LFE channel information to begin with as that is all you may be getting while the center gets the lows from the other channels too?
The LFE has its own mix separate from the low frequency content of the other channels.

 

[Yamahaluver]

I was under the impression that the LFE component is a seperate part of the encoding, it is true though that when speakers are set to small, low frequencies are diverted to the LFE. The problem with diverting center channel lows to the sub is that it just makes the vocals artificial, thats all.

 

[zumbo]

I am not certain about vocals. Do they fall below 60Hz?

 

[mfabien]

Male voices and the sub

Tomorrow I should be receiving my new PB-12 ISD from SVS.

Should I be concerned about male voices going to the sub rather than the Center channel speaker? Does this bother anyone? Is it tolerable or not?

I will be setting all speakers to Small
My Yamaha RX-V540 will then apply it's fixed crossover at 90Hz
The sub's crossover will be not be enabled.

If by chance I find male voices going to the sub intolerable (ex.: a woman and a man in dialog), should I:

- use the sub's crossover in addition to the Yamaha's fixed crossover? Say 80 or 75Hz? I'm aware that I may than need to play with the Phase setting if there's a conflict thus created. Or,

- should I make the Mains and Center "Large" and use the sub's crossover to control frequencies under a male's voice frequency to be sent to the sub?

 

[debs67]

Oh my word!
Thanks for all the input!

I hate to say it but I'm getting addicted to tweaking my system!
I'm going to try all the suggestions (much to the annoyance of my husband I suspect!) and see which suits my system the best.
I must say that the centre does sound better set to large though!
I didn't realise there were so many different settings when I "got into this"!!!
I certainly get confused with all the decibels,LFE,speaker levels,crossovers etc...
Oh well,you guys will see me through!
Thanks again,
Debs

 

[mtrycrafts]

I was under the impression that the LFE component is a seperate part of the encoding, .

Well, that is an accurate impression
Maybe her crossover was set too high cutting off some of the vocals?

 

[mfabien]

Received my new SVS PB-12 ISD and there's no problem with male vocals from the Center channel.