Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
Do they carry 100% of the information contained in the original master?
No.
If not then while compression may not be the correct terminology it is effectively the same thing. Please educate me... if 10lbs do not fit in an 8lb bag what happens to the other 2lbs? I'm always ready to learn.
The 2 pounds are omitted from the bag. Would you say the 8 pounds in the bag are compressed?
That shows a lack of understanding of technology and business. Nearly every new technology is a compromise to some degree in order to get something good enough to sell out the door at an affordable price point. The Internet wasn't in common use back then but there were discussions in the rags.
I understand technology and business. I don't agree with your assessment that CD audio is a rushed to market so-so product. At the time it was released it was superior to every other audio format available to consumers. Could it have been better? Perhaps, but your characterization of it as a housewife targeted cassette replacement is way off base.
 
J

johnfull

Audioholic Intern
You're talking about the marketing of CDs now, rather than the reality.
They were superior in some very important ways to everything that went before;
an absolutely silent noise floor and a dynamic range that would destroy equipment.
I had some early digital recordings on vinyl just before the advent of CDs.
Telarc's Firebird Suite, Boy George's Colour By Numbers, Donald Fagen's The Night Fly.
I had a Scott Cossu album, with the song Oristano's Sojourn from an analog master.
I subsequently bought a Windham Hill collection with the same track, only all the
songs had been digitally remastered. The digital remaster completely lost the 'air' in
the wind instruments and turned into a nasty hash when crescendos were reached.
Every digital recording sounded dry, crisp, or else harsh. Alan Parson's Days Are Numbers
had horrible sibilance. Dayssss Are Numbersssss. Things got better, but a lot
of us ditched our turntables and our Dolby cassettes and bought into the new medium
only to stop listening to the old stuff because it no longer possessed us. Not everyone
feels that way. New music after 1985 took advantage of the unique sound that only
the digital format could faithfully render.
So you are right; the new medium was sold as audiophile and it was not yet up to that
level of quality in all aspects. Maybe it was the best that could be had in 1984, but
what if we had waited till 1985? DAT had a higher standard -- was it subsequent?
LaserDiscs had a higher standard. I still use my Pioneer Laserdisc player to play CDs.
Early CD machines were characterized according to their accoustic characteristics, so
your assertion of 'simply convert' for the DACs is off base. They are not all the same
and many were awful in the bad old days. It was a bit of a schism between the
simplicity of assigning numbers and reading them back and the arcane science of
interpolation and sample and hold and the low pass filters, etc.
24/96 is far better. Conversion of vinyl and open reel tape to DVD-A is the way to go...
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
No.
The 2 pounds are omitted from the bag. Would you say the 8 pounds in the bag are compressed?
So part of the original audio from the 10lb master is omitted to make it fit in 8lb CD bag and I'm told that this is not a form of compression. Okay what is the correct terminology? Is the full dynamic range from the master there? Lossy formats like MP3 omit part of the music from the CD to make it fit a 3lb MP3 bag and that is compression. Okay fine. In both cases a decision is made to omit those bits of the original audio that you are least likely to miss but both omit some part of the original to fit a size restriction and one is compressed and the other is not, correct? Okay please educate me on the correct terminology for each. I'm quite honestly willing to learn.

I understand technology and business. I don't agree with your assessment that CD audio is a rushed to market so-so product. At the time it was released it was superior to every other audio format available to consumers. Could it have been better? Perhaps, but your characterization of it as a housewife targeted cassette replacement is way off base.
Yet for some reason vinyl survives. Anyway you are free to have your opinion and I'll continue to have mine and I'll continue to buy 24bit music.

Have a great holiday.
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
I have a question for you all.

I remember if you take a 320mp3 and compress it to 256 it is worse than taking a lossless and compressing to 256. (the former you are 'double compressing'). I read this in some magazine article, so, let me know if that is incorrect - but it makes sense to me.

Is this the same if the studio compressed from their masters versus us compressing from lossless?

I.e. would 320 compressed from a studio master be superior to a 320 that was a studio master made into a cd and then turned into a 320 mp3?

Does my question make sense? Always wondered about that.
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
Is this the same if the studio compressed from their masters versus us compressing from lossless?

I.e. would 320 compressed from a studio master be superior to a 320 that was a studio master made into a cd and then turned into a 320 mp3?
In this example I don't believe there would be any difference and I gather you're inferring the master would have been captured at a higher sampling rate and have a greater bit resolution. The first two steps would be to reduce the bit resolution and lower the sampling rate to what the mp3 encoder would accept thus making it equal to a CD before converting to mp3. Of course this assumes the target mp3 sample rate is 44.1.

Steve
 
J

johnfull

Audioholic Intern
So part of the original audio from the 10lb master is omitted to make it fit in 8lb CD bag and I'm told that this is not a form of compression. Okay what is the correct terminology? Is the full dynamic range from the master there? Lossy formats like MP3 omit part of the music from the CD to make it fit a 3lb MP3 bag and that is compression. Okay fine. In both cases a decision is made to omit those bits of the original audio that you are least likely to miss but both omit some part of the original to fit a size restriction and one is compressed and the other is not, correct? Okay please educate me on the correct terminology for each. I'm quite honestly willing to learn.


The PCM format (CD) is analogous to a bitmap for image reproduction.
There is a one-to-one correspondence between the bits and the image.
A jpeg image is analogous to an mp3, with perceptual tricks to make the
most of the restricted file size. Vision and hearing can both be deceived.

CDs restrict the number of 'colors' that they will reproduce with 16 bits
and are pixellated because of the 44.1 frequency response.

A hi-bit mp3 sounds better than a CD in the way that a high-quality jpg
image looks more natural than an equivalently-sized bitmap.

The limitations of mp3 are revealed when you 'magnify' with a hi-fidelity
sound system -- I use a Yamaha 7.1 channel processor that makes them
sound very thin and hard. The sound of a CD is 'better' on this system, but
its own limitations are revealed as well, in the form of harshness, sibilance,
and sounds not found in nature...
 
J

johnfull

Audioholic Intern
In this example I don't believe there would be any difference and I gather you're inferring the master would have been captured at a higher sampling rate and have a greater bit resolution. The first two steps would be to reduce the bit resolution and lower the sampling rate to what the mp3 encoder would accept thus making it equal to a CD before converting to mp3. Of course this assumes the target mp3 sample rate is 44.1.

Steve
Where do phychoaccousics fit into this? I have found that a CD, rendered into
a high quality mp3 and returned to CD format is often sweeter and more natural than the original CD. Does the psychoaccoustic process of waveform simplification make it easier for the PCM system to reproduce as well?...
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Where do phychoaccousics fit into this? I have found that a CD, rendered into a high quality mp3 and returned to CD format is often sweeter and more natural than the original CD. Does the psychoaccoustic process of waveform simplification make it easier for the PCM system to reproduce as well?...
I have grown very tired reading your one-note rant about your preference for analog vinyl music reproduction over digital redbook CD audio. It is not only repetitive and opinionated, but rambling and incoherent. Your lengthy posts are hard to understand, and if there is any logic to them, it’s lost on me.

However, none of that is why I’ve overcome my natural reluctance to engage conversation with a suspected kook or troll, such as you. You make broad statements of your opinions or preferences, but state them as if they are well-known scientific facts. There are many readers here at Audioholics who are new to audio and are simply looking for information and advice. You are welcome to have any opinions you like, and you are welcome to talk about your opinions here. But if you word them as if they are fact, you will be challenged by me and others. You don’t have to prove your ideas or opinions as fact, just word them as opinions.

For starters:
Psychoacoustics is all about perception – not just hearing. The ears do the physiological work of transducing acoustic sound waves (mechanical energy) into nerve impulses (biological digital energy). These nerves are hard wired to the brain, which processes and interprets the nerve signals into something we recognize as sound. When you say words like “sweeter and more natural (sounding) than the original CD” you are clearly talking about perception with all the brain participation involved.
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
I have found that a CD, rendered into
a high quality mp3 and returned to CD format is often sweeter and more natural than the original CD. Does the psychoaccoustic process of waveform simplification make it easier for the PCM system to reproduce as well?...
So how exactly did you test this difference?

Steve
 
J

johnfull

Audioholic Intern
I ripped a CD and changed it to mp3 in GoldWave and changed it back to a CD with RealPlayer. I used my admittedly non-linear and suggestible organic signal processor to measure the results; 'sweeter' being a subjective term. I did this a long time ago and only with a disc or two, but I noticed a decrease in the stridency of the high end. In the 7.1 sound field, though, it gave up most of its depth. The CD does, indeed, carry more info for phase manipulation.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I ripped a CD and changed it to mp3 in GoldWave and changed it back to a CD with RealPlayer. I used my admittedly non-linear and suggestible organic signal processor to measure the results. I did this a long time ago and only with a disc or two, but I noticed a decrease in the stridency of the high end. In the 7.1 sound field, though, it gave up most of its depth. The CD does, indeed, carry more info for phase manipulation.
Make that:
I used my admittedly non-linear and suggestible organic signal processor to observe the results.
No measurements were made.

Thank you for making it clear that you did this "a long time ago and only with a disc or two". There is a difference between fact and a single observation where there could also have been many other unexamined variables.
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
I ripped a CD and changed it to mp3 in GoldWave and changed it back to a CD with RealPlayer. I used my admittedly non-linear and suggestible organic signal processor to measure the results; 'sweeter' being a subjective term. I did this a long time ago and only with a disc or two, but I noticed a decrease in the stridency of the high end. In the 7.1 sound field, though, it gave up most of its depth. The CD does, indeed, carry more info for phase manipulation.
Do you even understand the meaning of some of the words you are posting or are you making this crap up, with the help of an adult, as you go along?

Be gone evil troll.
 
J

johnfull

Audioholic Intern
You're right. The interesting part is the simplification of the waveform and whether
this improves some aspects of the sound when reformatted to CD. I give the science
folks a lot of kudos for work in human perception, both visual and aural.
Jpegs and mpegs are marvels of achievement. A DVD with Dolby Digital soundtrack
sounds better than a CD as well (to my ears) even though it's the sound equivalent
of a compressed .jpeg or .mpeg picture...any comments on the science of perception?
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
I ripped a CD and changed it to mp3 in GoldWave and changed it back to a CD with RealPlayer. I used my admittedly non-linear and suggestible organic signal processor to measure the results; 'sweeter' being a subjective term. I did this a long time ago and only with a disc or two, but I noticed a decrease in the stridency of the high end. In the 7.1 sound field, though, it gave up most of its depth. The CD does, indeed, carry more info for phase manipulation.
That's good news for you then as you can convert your library to MP3 and save a lot of space! :)

A fair portion of my small library is in MP3 so I can move it from computers, home theater, car, etc and enjoy it anywhere. For the vast majority of my music I do not use critical listening, I just enjoy it for what it is. For other music, generally the more classical oriented, I play the directly ripped from CD WAV files but honestly I don't notice much of a difference.

Steve
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I haven't bought a CD in like 10 yrs. I guess it's not a big deal to me.:D
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
You're right. The interesting part is the simplification of the waveform and whether
this improves some aspects of the sound when reformatted to CD. I give the science
folks a lot of kudos for work in human perception, both visual and aural.
Jpegs and mpegs are marvels of achievement. A DVD with Dolby Digital soundtrack
sounds better than a CD as well (to my ears) even though it's the sound equivalent
of a compressed .jpeg or .mpeg picture...any comments on the science of perception?
I'll stick with lossless forms of compression like flac and png, thanks very much :)
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
So part of the original audio from the 10lb master is omitted to make it fit in 8lb CD bag and I'm told that this is not a form of compression. Okay what is the correct terminology?
- Converting from one sample rate to another is called resampling. If you start with 96 kHz, you have 96,000 samples per second and want to convert to 44.1 kHz, which is 44, 100 samples per second. Conceptually what is done is to 're-group' the samples so that there are now 44, 100 samples for each second.

It is not a simple matter of just taking the first 44, 100 and calling them second one, and the next 44, 100 and calling them second two, however, because then you'd be left with 7800 samples at the end and what would you do with them? Nor does the algorithm simply grap the first 44, 100 samples and discard samples 44, 101 through 96,000.

Instead, for each original set of 96, 000 samples an interpolation process is used - think of it as 'curve fitting'. You've got a set of points from 1 to 96, 000 and you want to end up with the same (or very similar) shape curve using only 44, 100 points.

Downsampling to a lower sample rate causes 'aliasing' which is when a higher frequency captured by the higher initial sampling rate wraps around to a lower frequency. With 44.1 kHz, the highest frequency captured would be half that - 22.05 kHz. If the original contained 50 kHz, it would wrap around and become 5.9 kHz (50 - 44 .1). 'Anti-aliasing' filters are used to eliminate that artifact.

- Converting from one bit depth to another is called bit depth conversion.
Going from 24 bit to 16 bit is not a simple matter of chopping off ('truncating') the low order 8 bits. Dither (random noise) is added using a process known as 'noise shaping' and aims to put most of that noise at a very low level (typically -90 dB down) and then zeroes out the low order 8 bits. Now when the low order 8 bits are truncated you are left with a 16 bit sample and when all of them are likewise you processed you end up with a waveform that is very much like the original.

Is the full dynamic range from the master there?
If the master was recorded digitally at a higher bit depth and sampling frequency, then no. Higher bit depths capture a greater dynamic range and higher sampling frequencies capture higher frequencies in the original audio (Nyquist/Shannon sampling theorem again).

The higher frequencies above our range of hearing don't matter and it's ok to get rid of them without altering our perception of the sound. The extra dynamic range possible from a higher bit depth is not much of a problem either - how much music truly has a dynamic range of 144 dB? Even if it did, could you hear that large a difference between the loudest and softest sound? Think about this: even with good headphones while listening to music and watching the meters in SoundForge, when the level drops to about -60 dB as the music fades out, I can't hear a thing. :)

Lossy formats like MP3 omit part of the music from the CD to make it fit a 3lb MP3 bag and that is compression. Okay fine. In both cases a decision is made to omit those bits of the original audio that you are least likely to miss but both omit some part of the original to fit a size restriction and one is compressed and the other is not, correct?
Right and I know it sounds like a semantic hair split but it really isn't. PCM is the lowest common denominator in digital audio and everything is built on top of it. MP3s are PCM too - BUT they are not raw sample values that can be directly read one by one by a DAC and converted to analog.

Just as you can't 'type' or 'cat' a .zip file on your hard disk - it has to be unzipped (decoded) to get back to the raw underlying contents. The MP3 decoder decodes the encoded samples and produces a stream of raw PCM samples. Note that it is the same for Dolby Digital, DTS, etc (except the encoding is obviously different than MP3 which is different than AAC, etc).

An MP3 encoder effectively 'resamples' on the fly. It reads the raw PCM samples, analayzes them, and groups them into bands, either by frequency or by time. Each of those bands are analzyed and anything the model deems inaudible within each band is discarded - for example, a soft sound that is immediately preceded or followed by a louder sound is discarded because the loud sound would 'mask' the soft sound and you wouldn't likely hear the soft sound anyway.

In a nutshell
All of this is very complicated and mathematically intensive. The benefit of higher sampling rates and higher bit depths in recording is not so much that we need to capture very high frequencies (that we can't hear) or need to preserve a huge dynamic range because most music simply doesn't have a dynamic range much greater than 96 dB, which is the limit for CD.

It is beneficial for the post-processing stage to reduce math errors like rounding or overflow. If you muliply two 16 bit numbers (say when doing 'normalization') the result can be greater than what would fit in 16 bits. The higher bit depth and sampling rate gives us headroom to work with to prevent those kinds of errors.

If you open a 16 bit CD track in Sound Forge, it will convert it to 32-bit floating point so you can manipulate it. When you are done and save the file, it converts it back to 16 bit.
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
MP3s are PCM too - BUT they are not raw sample values that can be directly read one by one by a DAC and converted to analog.
Just wondering if calling MP3 data PCM is really accurate. Each MP3 frame is divided into a series of frequency/amplitude components right? Not sure if one could still call this just PCM.

Steve
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
So part of the original audio from the 10lb master is omitted to make it fit in 8lb CD bag and I'm told that this is not a form of compression. Okay what is the correct terminology?
Well, I would say some of the content in the master may have been omitted.
Is the full dynamic range from the master there?
That's impossible to say with a blanket statement. If the master has more than 96dB of dynamic range, then no. If it doesn't, then yes it could be.
Lossy formats like MP3 omit part of the music from the CD to make it fit a 3lb MP3 bag and that is compression.
Yes, that is compression, but it's not the same sort of omission. The encoder doing MP3 compression leaves out things deemed to be inaudible to the listener. PCM audio leaves out things the format isn't capable of containing or representing at whatever sampling rate / bit depth it's using. No judgement is made regarding the audibility of content.
Okay fine. In both cases a decision is made to omit those bits of the original audio that you are least likely to miss but both omit some part of the original to fit a size restriction and one is compressed and the other is not, correct?
Sort of... I'd say that PCM isn't size restricted in a strict sense. It's bit depth / sampling rate restricted. MP3 compression is bitrate limited.
 
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