CD Player Audio vs DVD Player Audio!

[j_garcia]

DTS CAN be transmitted via PCM, which is how the 5.1 DTS tracks on a DTS CD are passed from a CD player that has a digital output. The player doesn't know what the signal is, it just passes it on to the receiver where the decoding is done. These are also obviously compatible with a DVD player that has DTS capability. These CDs CANNOT be played via analog; you will get nothing but static. AFAIK DD cannot be passed this way, and if it is, it is downmixed to 2ch by the player - a feature that most, if not all, DVD players have. As Dan said, CDs are always PCM and not DD.

 

[mfabien]

You claimed CD's were Dolby Digital, which they are not. I have no idea what that has to do with DTS music disks, except that they aren't CD's either.

Don't bother replying.

 

[tbewick]

The analogue outputs and digital outputs of a DVD (or CD) player will sound different usually because they have different signal-to-noise ratios. My Pioneer DVD player has a specification of 115 dB S/N but has a S/N of ~70 dB through the analogue out (this being the figure quoted in a review of the player). The cable will degrade the signal in both the analogue and digital interface, but this will probably affect the analogue interface more. This is because the Toslink/S/PDIF digital interface is more resilient to distortion - especially noise.

Presumably that is one of the things your paying for when getting a more expensive CD/DVD player - the better S/N through the analogue outputs. Technically there are reasons for why it is preferable to do the DAC without using a cable (channel) for obvious reasons (so it is in the same circuit, same master clock etc.). There is the issue of using correctly implemented phase locked loops (PLL) in external DAC's which could affect performance.

The consumer digital interfaces use a coding system like the one in the professional interface. I believe one of the differences is that the professional interface is balanced. Personally I use a fairly cheap toslink interface and I don't have any complaints. I can tell the difference between the analogue output and digital output because they are grossly different, because of the different S/N ratios.

One issue nowadays that should be completely irrelevant are the quality of the DAC's for 16 bit CD audio. Virtually all are 24-bit with accuracies of at least 18-bit. Other things like the stablity of the master clock, jitter etc. affect performance of the DAC and the overall quality of the system. If the system is designed well, then the CD/DVD player will be entirely transparent.

Reviewing the specifications of the CD/DVD player will give you an indication of its quality. The total harmonic distortion figure does not tell you everything about the distortion added by the player. Subjective reviews of CD/DVD players can be unreliable. For example, according to What Hi-Fi?, DAC's require breaking-in, which of course is absolute nonsense.

When CD digital audio appeared 25 years ago, the sound quality of the first generation of equipment was applauded. Surely most equipment nowadays is technically superior than the first generation stuff and should therefore be just as good and transparent?

 

[shokhead]

With analogs? Never heard that before.[/

Why dont you try it..

 

[mfabien]

With analogs? Never heard that before.[/

Why dont you try it..

I will when the Sony DVPNC60P gets here. If you look at the specs, you will see the Audio specs (192kHz/24-bit Audio DAC, DTS Digital Output, 96kHz/24-bit Digital Output) and in the outputs = Analog Audio 2ch Output.

Just like your specs, no word about DVD-A but I believe that is a matter of principal for Sony not to mention it because it's the direct competition to SACD. So yes, I'll will try playing a DVD-A with the analog cables (use it normally for the DTS tracks). DVD-A have the 96 kHz sampling stated above. For my player, the specs have no word on SACD. But I'm not getting the player for multi channel analog use, therefore, DVD-A and SACD are not my concern.

Any audio produced with a sampling rate in excess of 48 kHz via digital connection, will be rendered in Stereo by my Yamaha. But I doubt if this is of any concern for what media am I missing with a sampling rate above 48 kHz over digital connection?


Now, knowing that most CDs are in 44.1 kHz sampling, should I expect to hear something different using the analog 2 ch facility, with the player's DAC vs the Yamaha's digital handling? I will try it. Wonder if there is bass management in the Sony for my sub, under 2 ch. analog.

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1001515&navigationPath=n45940n32070

 

[j_garcia]

DVD-A WILL NOT PLAY on a Sony player. Period. The DVD-V tracks that are available on some DVD-A discs (DD, DTS, etc...) will play, but these are not the same as the hires DVD-A tracks.

 

[mfabien]

Ok, thanks j_garcia. Not a problem.

So, can someone tell me why this Sony player will provide me with 96 kHz sampling over digital and 192 kHz sampling over analog? What for?

With 48 kHz or else, I never had problems with multi channel DTS over digital connection. So why the 96 kHz?

 

[tbewick]

Analogue connections have no limitation as to their sampling as analogue data is continuous. This makes analogue data more susceptible to noise. Digital connections are limited to a certain data rate.

Higher sampling rates don't sound much better above 44.1 kHz, i.e. 48 kHz sounds very similar to 44.1 kHz. This is why more advanced digital formats like SACD or DVD Audio can sound very similar to audio CD. The number of bits is more important than the sampling rate. This Rane note has more information:

http://www.rane.com/note137.html

 

[W_Harding]

DAD and HDAD

So, can someone tell me why this Sony player will provide me with 96 kHz sampling over digital and 192 kHz sampling over analog? What for?

It may be that the Sony can play DAD and/or HDAD high resolution discs. These discs are designed to be playable on DVD-V players and feature 96kHz./24-bit (DAD) and 192kHz/24-bit (HDAD) encoding. Most, if not all, of these are two-channel stereo.

HDAD, "Hybrid Digital Audio Disc", is a two-sided DVD-based disc. One side of the disc is DVD-Video formatted and contains 24/96 PCM data playable on all DVD video players. The other side contains 24/192 PCM data and is playable on DVD-Audio players.

 

[mfabien]

W_Harding,

Any examples of recordings? Title and media?

 

[Dan Driscoll]

Any examples of recordings? Title and media?

Here are some HDADs and DADs.

They are recorded on DVD disks. DADs can be played back on most DVD players, but HDADs can only be played on DVD-Audio players. So DADs should play just fine on your Sony DVD player, but HDADs probably won't, although I won't swear to that.

Aren't you glad I don't take demands well?

 

[W_Harding]

Dan,

Thanks for the links. If one follows the link to Classic Records you will see the following:

RELEASE NO. TITLE
HDAD-2008 . Muddy Waters: Folk Singer
DAD-1008 . "Glory" (original motion picture soundtrack)
HDAD-2003 . Alan Parsons "I Robot"
HDAD-2011 . Alan Parsons: Eye In The Sky BACKORDERED
HDAD-2006 . Alan Parsons: Turn of a Friendly Card
DAD-1029 . Antil: Corroboree
DAD-1001 . Art Davis: A Time Remembered
HDAD-2012 . Berlioz: Requiem
HDAD-2009 . Canonball Adderly: Somethin' Else
HDAD-2007 . Casino Royale
DAD-1010 . Chris Whitley: Dirt Floor
HDAD-2005 . Close Encounters (Movie Sound Track)
DAD-1023 . Dr. John: Plays Mac Rebbenack
DAD-1017 . Dr. John: The Brightest Smile In Town
DAD-1012 . Earl Hines & Jimmy Rushing: Blues & Things
DAD-1030 . Ernest Bloch/Amos, LSO: Concerto Symphonique
DAD-1019 . Freddie Hubbard: Open Sesame
DAD-1018 . Gershwin: All The Works For Orchestra & For Piano & Orchestra (2 disc set)
DAD-1016 . Hank Mobley: Roll Call
DAD-1032 . Janos Starker: Starker Plays Baker
HDAD-2010 . John Coltrane: Blue Train
DAD-1011 . John Lee Hooker: Boom Boom
DAD-1007 . John Lee Hooker: Mr. Lucky
DAD-1024 . Kenny Drew: Undercurrent
DAD-1015 . Lorna Hunt: All In One Day
DAD-1026 . Lou Donaldson: Lou Takes Off
HDAD-2001 . Mahler's Eighth
DAD-1040 . Nancy Griffith: The Last of the True Believers
HDAD-2004 . Pete Townsend: Who Came First
DAD-1036 . Pete Townshend - Another Scoop (1 Disc)
DAD-1038 . Pete Townshend - Scoop 3 Classic D.A.D. (2 D.A.D. set)
DAD-1021 . Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky / Rimsky-Korsakov: Sheherazade
DAD-1025 . Ravel: All The Works For Orchestra (2 discs)
DAD-1013 . Sam Phillips: Cruel Inventions
DAD-1009 . Sam Phillips: The Indescribable Wow
DAD-1042 . Sarah McLachlan - Touch
HDAD-2002 . Songs of the Auvergne
DAD-1037 . Sonny Clark: Cool Struttin'
DAD-1014 . Terry Evans: Blues For Thought
DAD-1005 . The Jimmy Rushing All Stars: Gee, Baby, Ain't I Good To You
DAD-1002 . The New Music Consort: Pulse
DAD-1041 . The Weavers: Reunion at Carnegie Hall (1963)
DAD-1006 . Zoot Sims and Al Cohn: Either Way

 

[mfabien]

Received my Sony DVD model DVP-NC60P 5 disc Changer today. After discussions here and with a Sony salesman over the phone (who had to ask somebody else) it is now clear that the shuffling of Cd's can be only within 1 CD at the time and not with the entire 5 disc's as I understood it would. This was confirmed over the phone with a Sony CSR.

So that means I need to attend and switch Disc by remote if I want the shuffling effect with the 5 disc's. Each disc can be programmed for tracks but only as the current disc. Therefore, this is not the solution for unattended operation. Presently, I don't have a problem with that as I don't have satellite speakers in another room.

However, the DVD part compensates quite well. Next week I will have guests and they selected the Elton John Concert: Greatest Hits, One Night Only. Half way through, I will pause Disc 1 and select Disc 2 position for the Eagles' Farewell 1 Tour (already paused) for Hotel California. The Guests may have a DVD of their own to try out on the big TV and sound system so that will go in Disc 3 position. Then we will come back to Disc 1 and resume Elton John.

 

[j_garcia]

What do you mean "already paused"? When you switch from one disc to another, the player will not remember where you were on the other disc. I believe the resume play function only works if you do not completely stop that disc and if you do not switch from that disc to another.

Most changers will not random play from all discs in the player because it often takes too long when switching from one disc to the next. So not because shuffling across discs is a problem, but because people are impatient. Another reason is when you have both CDs and DVDs. Many players do not differentiate between them, and you don't want to random play tracks off a DVD. My Panasonic F87 had a "CD Mode" in which it would ignore DVDs, but I don't remember if it would random play from the CDs that were in there or not.

 

[MDS]

Received my Sony DVD model DVP-NC60P 5 disc Changer today. After discussions here and with a Sony salesman over the phone (who had to ask somebody else) it is now clear that the shuffling of Cd's can be only within 1 CD at the time and not with the entire 5 disc's as I understood it would. This was confirmed over the phone with a Sony CSR.

Along the same lines, DVD changers that can play a data disc with MP3s claim a random feature as well but it has similar limitations.

If you were to burn a cd-r with a wide variety of music on it and organize the music in different folders (directory) - say rock, funk, pop, etc - and then use the random function, the results will not be as 'random' as you might expect. It will randomly choose one of the folders and then play every song in that folder before choosing another folder. You have to have a single root directory only to get any kind of randomness.

IMO, CD/DVD changers are just not the right tool for the job if you want random or shuffle play. I'll never own another one. It's better to rip all your music to a hard disk and then use any of the available devices (Squeezebox, Audiotron, et al) to play it back over your stereo.

 

[mfabien]

What do you mean "already paused"? When you switch from one disc to another, the player will not remember where you were on the other disc. I believe the resume play function only works if you do not completely stop that disc and if you do not switch from that disc to another.
...

Actually it works not only if you press Pause but if you press Stop once (instead of twice) it will resume. I can switch to another disc then come back to the original one and it will resume.

 

[mfabien]

Resume with the Sony DVP-NC60P

And I can power off the DVD (Activity "Watch DVD") with the Harmony and when I come back, all disc's with "Resume" enabled will resume at the appropriate place where they were left.

 

[shokhead]

What do you mean "already paused"? When you switch from one disc to another, the player will not remember where you were on the other disc. I believe the resume play function only works if you do not completely stop that disc and if you do not switch from that disc to another.

Most changers will not random play from all discs in the player because it often takes too long when switching from one disc to the next. So not because shuffling across discs is a problem, but because people are impatient. Another reason is when you have both CDs and DVDs. Many players do not differentiate between them, and you don't want to random play tracks off a DVD. My Panasonic F87 had a "CD Mode" in which it would ignore DVDs, but I don't remember if it would random play from the CDs that were in there or not.

I had a sony 10 disc and a Pioneer 5 disc and they both changee disc in random play. disc 1 song 4,disc 3 song 7,disc 2 song 9 until everything had played.I'll have to check this sony as i havent tried that yet.

 

[mfabien]

My Sony DVD model DVP-NC60P 5 disc Changer has a "Multi-discs Resume" feature and I have prepared the following after diner medley for guests*coming this Saturday:

The player has the starting points (resume) memorized for each disc. (I can even remove the DVD's, then put them back in different positions in the player and the resume of each DVD is still in memory).

Disc 1 = (CD) Ocean Sounds opening of Pachelbel (just to create an ambiance, the sounds of waves riding and crashing unto the beach...)
Time 2 minutes

DVD's:
Disc 2 = Elton John's Greatest Hits One Night Only:
Chapters:
2 = Candle in the Winds
4 = Goodby Yellow Brick Road, a duo with Billy Jewel
11 = Rocket Man
13 = Blue Eyes
20 = Your Song, a duo with Ronan Keating
21 = Sad Songs, a duo with Brian Adams
Time 24 minutes

Disc 3 = Eagles Farewell 1 Tour Disc 2
Chapters:
7 = Hotel California
11 = Desperado
Time 11m36s

Disc 4 = Eagles Farewell 1 Tour Disc 1
Chapters:
6 = I Can't Tell You Why
13 = Tequila Sunrise
Time 7m49s

Disc 5 = Diana Krall Live in Paris
Chapters:
3 = Let's Fall in Love
4 = The Look of Love
Time 13m

Total for DVD player = just under 1 hour.

Then from my DVR,

4m of Alicia Keys from David Letterman Jan. 12 show (CBSHD)
6m of the last scenes of movie Chicago in HD (CBCHD)
30m of Amos Lee at Austin City Limits (PBSHD)

Total, 1h40m.

Nuts, chips, beer, Porto, chocolates, Champagne.