Carbon Monoxide and Fuel Furnaces

[rnatalli]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/three-girls-dead-troy-ohio-after-carbon-monoxide-leak-n315401

Not sure why the home didn't have a working CO detector, but 2 kids are dead and 1 in critical condition. It seems every week I see a story like this, or a pipe exploding, etc. What I can't understand is that why in this day and age we're still installing gas and oil furnaces when better options such as heat pumps with auxiliary heat exist. The cost to install a heat pump system with auxiliary is the same or less than installing an equivalent gas or oil system and the same holds true for annual operating costs.

 

[TLS Guy]

The key is a good working CO detector.

In this part of the world a heat pump by itself will not cut it. In our temps it gets so cold the heat pump has to shut of as it gets pretty much useless and it also causes them to fail.

I went the heat pump route and gave up on it.

In addition electric standard service is expensive here, and the utility likes the heat to be on a separate service that is can and is interrupted. This happens at the coldest peaks.

So I have ripple electric heat with propane back up. I also have a 70% efficient wood burning fire place that runs 24/7 while we are here in the winter.

In the Twin Cities in our climate natural gas is so cheap it is a better deal than a heat pump. There is no cheap ripple there. So I heat our Eagan place with natural gas.

The problems come in very cold weather when the exhaust gets plugged with ice. This is very prevalent in the high efficiency furnaces. You have to keep and eye open for this.

The other problem is cracks and failures in the heat exchanger. Yearly inspections help here.

The other issue is that too many families don't have the money to maintain furnaces properly.

Lastly very heavy insulation and draft exclusion is also key, so the furnace does not run excessively long.

In this area we get the largest number of problems in the extreme cold episodes.

 

[rnatalli]

I'm in Boston and my heat pump has no trouble keeping the house at 70 all the way down to about 25 degrees before it needs help. Even at that temperature, it has better efficiency than gas or oil assuming it's setup correctly which often times they're not. I suppose in some states, fuel does come in cheaper, but can't imagine by a huge margin. I could be wrong especially considering how many sub 25 days happen further north.

 

[TLS Guy]

It was -50 F a week ago Sunday morning in Bemidji. We are 27 miles South, so figure it out.

Last winter we had 66 days where the temp never went above zero in 24 hour periods. I think there were over 100 days when the temp was 0 F or below.

25 degrees is nothing in these parts. We can go for a month or more and often do without getting close to 25 above. In December Jan, usually Feb and often March and November 25 above is a heat wave.

The other problem with heat pumps is the powdery snow we get gets drawn into them and plugs them. In addition we have a thing called wind chill. The last two winters have had a lot of wind even in Lakes country.

In the Red River Valley of ND where I used to live, there was almost always a wind. So with windchill it can feel a lot like -30 frequently. This morning it was -4 F. Wednesday -15 forecast.

A week ago last Thursday when I left here for an 8.30 AM meeting in Walker, my car thermometer read -33F. Our fire place was running and both gas furnaces.

When I drive down county 38 the other side of the lake, the steam from all the condensate was rising high in the sky, and it looked like a large factory!

The electric heat was rippled out.

Heat pumps are just a PITA here.

The cheapest way to heat is wood or natural gas if you can get it.

Right here the cheapest source is wood, and the next ripple electric and the next is propane.

We don't have much fuel oil here because it is environmentally sensitive and there are containment issues and it is expensive.

 

[slipperybidness]

CO detectors are absolutely needed. Dunno how many people have them or know the risks.

It's cheap and reliable.

Also, I doubt that most people know the signs of CO poising. It's important to know the signs beforehand and have a plan. When you do have the symptoms, you gotta get out quick, and you may not have good reasoning skills at that point.

 

[rnatalli]

Good points; heat pump definitely doesn't make sense where you are, but mystifies me why folks around here will go oil given the option. My sister has oil and her heating costs far exceed mine; her house is similar size and insulation. She keeps her thermostat at 68 so not even as warm.

Powdery snow isn't an issue for our pump as the defrost cycle takes care of making sure it doesn't clog the coils. Of course, during huge storms like we've had here in Boston the past few weeks, I cover the pump and run entirely on auxiliary heat. Expensive yes, but for only some days during the entire heating season isn't bad.

 

[rnatalli]

CO detectors are absolutely needed. Dunno how many people have them or know the risks.

It's cheap and reliable.

Also, I doubt that most people know the signs of CO poising. It's important to know the signs beforehand and have a plan. When you do have the symptoms, you gotta get out quick, and you may not have good reasoning skills at that point.

Problem with CO poisoning is it can happen while you're sleeping. When we lived in our condo years ago heated with gas, we had two CO detectors (main one and plug in) which also had battery backup.

 

[TLS Guy]

Good points; heat pump definitely doesn't make sense where you are, but mystifies me why folks around here will go oil given the option. My sister has oil and her heating costs far exceed mine; her house is similar size and insulation. She keeps her thermostat at 68 so not even as warm.

Powdery snow isn't an issue for our pump as the defrost cycle takes care of making sure it doesn't clog the coils. Of course, during huge storms like we've had here in Boston the past few weeks, I cover the pump and run entirely on auxiliary heat. Expensive yes, but for only some days during the entire heating season isn't bad.

I think I'm correct in saying that only New England has significant oil heating now.

You would not come close to getting your money back with a heat pump if you can get natural gas. When you have natural gas, you use it for your heat, cooking, hot water and the clothes dryer. In Eagan in addition to that we have a gas fireplace and the cost is amazingly little.

At the lake with no natural gas it is significantly more expensive. Another problem would be that the pump would have to be on the ripple. That would means the AC would be on the ripple. You really don't want your AC rippled on a 100 + day in July. I do use largely geothermal AC by the way. I make use of the almost ice cold underground artesian lake.

Here all the heavy duty loads except the cooking are on ripple. So I have dual heat source plus hot water dual source. The clothes stay damp until the dryer comes back on. Propane is almost double the cost of natural gas and electric ripple about 40% higher, regular electric is 40% higher than the ripple electric. Last year propane peaked about five time higher than natural gas. Luckily my tank holds 800 gallons of propane and so I avoided the peak, by prebuying and not filling up until summer.

I think you can see there are lots of reasons to use gas furnaces.

 

[Swerd]

I live in Maryland where it has been cold this winter, but not nearly so cold as farther north. I heat my home with natural gas, and compared to a previous townhouse (more than 20 years ago) with a heat pump, the difference is large. In this area, the price of heating with electricity vs. natural gas makes gas a clear winner.

But the difference in comfort levels is also large. I found that the heat pump/forced-air heating system could produce slightly warmed air, but it always left us feeling chilly, no matter what the air temperature was. Gas/forced-air actually produces warm air when it's running and is noticeably more comfortable.

I remember asking a Heat/AC guy about that, and he answered that heat pumps that extract heat from outside air barely work well in the Maryland/Virginia area without using supplemental resistive electric heating. Farther north was not really feasible unless the heat pump is the geothermal kind. Is there something new about modern heat pumps which makes them useable in Massachusetts?

 

[slipperybidness]

Down in TX, I use natural gas. It's great for the furnace, the drier, and the range. Cheaper and more efficient than electricity for sure.

It was a particularly cold winter here too this year, cold for TX anyway.

Many years, I might run my furnace for a total of 2 or 3 weeks out of the year total. Not even 2-3 weeks in a row! I don't even really own "winter clothes", just a few jackets, hoodies, and thermal underwear, that's about all I ever need.

For example, I have already had to turn on my AC twice this year! It was 76F inside, and muggy too.

 

[TLS Guy]

I live in Maryland where it has been cold this winter, but not nearly so cold as farther north. I heat my home with natural gas, and compared to a previous townhouse (more than 20 years ago) with a heat pump, the difference is large. In this area, the price of heating with electricity vs. natural gas makes gas a clear winner.

But the difference in comfort levels is also large. I found that the heat pump/forced-air heating system could produce slightly warmed air, but it always left us feeling chilly, no matter what the air temperature was. Gas/forced-air actually produces warm air when it's running and is noticeably more comfortable.

I remember asking a Heat/AC guy about that, and he answered that heat pumps that extract heat from outside air barely work well in the Maryland/Virginia area without using supplemental resistive electric heating. Farther north was not really feasible unless the heat pump is the geothermal kind. Is there something new about modern heat pumps which makes them useable in Massachusetts?

That really is the issue. Heat pumps are only any good up to a few degrees below the freezing point.

Here our houses have to be so well insulated we really don't need heat until around the freezing point when the house is lived in. Body heat, cooking etc. does the job. No significant heat is required until the teens and no serious heat until single digits.

We have to be able to stand a 110 F degree heat gradient without breaking the bank!

 

[lsiberian]

Sad. I don't have a CO detector though.

 

[its phillip]

I've got one on each floor. I should probably change the batteries on them though.

 

[rnatalli]

I think I'm correct in saying that only New England has significant oil heating now.

You would not come close to getting your money back with a heat pump if you can get natural gas. When you have natural gas, you use it for your heat, cooking, hot water and the clothes dryer. In Eagan in addition to that we have a gas fireplace and the cost is amazingly little.

At the lake with no natural gas it is significantly more expensive. Another problem would be that the pump would have to be on the ripple. That would means the AC would be on the ripple. You really don't want your AC rippled on a 100 + day in July. I do use largely geothermal AC by the way. I make use of the almost ice cold underground artesian lake.

Here all the heavy duty loads except the cooking are on ripple. So I have dual heat source plus hot water dual source. The clothes stay damp until the dryer comes back on. Propane is almost double the cost of natural gas and electric ripple about 40% higher, regular electric is 40% higher than the ripple electric. Last year propane peaked about five time higher than natural gas. Luckily my tank holds 800 gallons of propane and so I avoided the peak, by prebuying and not filling up until summer.

I think you can see there are lots of reasons to use gas furnaces.

No gas where I am, but would still take induction over gas for cooking.

 

[rnatalli]

That really is the issue. Heat pumps are only any good up to a few degrees below the freezing point.

Here our houses have to be so well insulated we really don't need heat until around the freezing point when the house is lived in. Body heat, cooking etc. does the job. No significant heat is required until the teens and no serious heat until single digits.

We have to be able to stand a 110 F degree heat gradient without breaking the bank!

Depends on the pump. Ours is fine on its own down to 25 degrees.

 

[GO-NAD!]

One of my CO detectors recently died. This reminds me to get a new one. Thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

Depends on the pump. Ours is fine on its own down to 25 degrees.

25 degrees is just below the freezing point. In the upper Midwest 25 degrees is a balmy warm winter day.

 

[rnatalli]

One of my CO detectors recently died. This reminds me to get a new one. Thanks.

Please do. Definitely don't want to read another story like this.

 

[Haoleb]

Part of the issue is also the people who die from their own laziness and stupidity. I am talking about the people who let snow cover their exhaust vents. I see plenty of people who are too lazy to shovel a proper path to the exits in their homes. Forget about keeping vents clear. They are the same folks who can't be bothered to do more than turn their wipers on to clean their car off after a snow storm and almost cause accidents because they can't see a damned thing and people can't see them because their lights are covered.

You can't fix stupid.