Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
How much (if any) is to be believed with respect to lengthy capacitor break in ? When I read people stating that their 'reference' components needs 500 hrs of use to 'sound it's best' I just can't buy into it.

To the EE's on the board please explain .......
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
How much (if any) is to be believed with respect to lengthy capacitor break in ? When I read people stating that their 'reference' components needs 500 hrs of use to 'sound it's best' I just can't buy into it.

To the EE's on the board please explain .......
Check post 54 in this thread.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
A very old idle electrolytic cap might take a day. A newer one might take 10 minutes.
A film cap almost zero. The exception is a film cap stored in humid conditions might have slight measurable drift for a day.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
My Marantz 8300 sounded the same after 10 years :) So either it didn't break in or it always sounded good.;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
How much (if any) is to be believed with respect to lengthy capacitor break in ? When I read people stating that their 'reference' components needs 500 hrs of use to 'sound it's best' I just can't buy into it.

To the EE's on the board please explain .......
I wonder how they compared the sound at time zero and at 500 hours?

Don't worry about it.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I wonder how they compared the sound at time zero and at 500 hours?

Don't worry about it.
Oh, I don't, rather I'm wondering as the extent of the validity. Thus my question is put to the EE's that hopefully can answer it in know scientific parameters, not just some stupid 'off the cuff' remark........
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh, I don't, rather I'm wondering as the extent of the validity. Thus my question is put to the EE's that hopefully can answer it in know scientific parameters, not just some stupid 'off the cuff' remark........
If you ask stupid question (ie: Capacitors don't make sound) you'll get stupid "off the cuff" remarks.
Closest you got so far to scientific answer see response #3 above.

(I'm not EE, but a certified Electronics technician and IT pro, for last 20 years. I did more soldering (on military electronics equipment) than most people in their entire lifetime)

TL;DR: Modern Capacitors burn-in doesn't exists, however vacuum DO change their parameters with time and do need often replacement for equipment to stay in manufacturer spec.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
If you ask stupid question (ie: Capacitors don't make sound) you'll get stupid "off the cuff" remarks.
no stupid questions, but there are at times stupid answers

Closest you got so far to scientific answer see response #3 above.
correct, I figured as such .....


TL;DR: Modern Capacitors burn-in doesn't exists, however vacuum DO change their parameters with time and do need often replacement for equipment to stay in manufacturer spec.
understood, so out of spec can have adverse effect on sound quality whereas the burn in myth is as I've always believed to be just that........
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
What does occur instead is, user burn-in. I've noticed it myself with speakers I bought that were well used, and over 15 years old. The more I listened to them, the more I liked them. Same with amps.

What I know as "burn-in," is when something becomes predictably reliable to the point where it's apparent that it will likely make it well past it's warranty coverage after not blowing up the first few weeks. In other words, it has survived multiple on-off, hot-cold cycles with no cooking/burning smell.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
What does occur instead is, user burn-in. I've noticed it myself with speakers I bought that were well used, and over 15 years old. The more I listened to them, the more I liked them. Same with amps.

What I know as "burn-in," is when something becomes predictably reliable to the point where it's apparent that it will likely make it well past it's warranty coverage after not blowing up the first few weeks. In other words, it has survived multiple on-off, hot-cold cycles with no cooking/burning smell.
User burn in, what a good concept. As you know, I'm having speakers built by Jim Salk. In an interview for a magazine the writer asked him about burn in time on his speakers. His answer was point blank blunt : there is no such thing. After listening to 1,000's of hours of speaker testing, good speakers sound the same after 5 minutes of play as 500 hours of play. Burn in in Jim Salks opinion, and his opinion is as valid as any EE's, is a myth for speakers.

Speakers are the most likely item to need a "burn in" in a sound system since they are electro-mechanical devices that move and have points of friction and wear. If Mr Salk says "nope", then I can support that.

User burn in, or the user getting adjusted to the sound system, is a concept I can fully support. I've said it before, the user is the least reliable part of a sound system. Golden ears or no, users of sound systems probably need the adjustment period far more than an electrical component. Once again MrBoat you have illustrated a great concept not in the textbooks of them young whippernsappers.:)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Here is what everyone misses:

Everyone that has a system that they used, is by use, a 'burned in' system. There is no use about 'burning' something in that is going to get there all by itself.

Modern caps are going to be at their full potential after a few minutes and they are at operating temp.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I would certainly hope that with the amount of hours of service we expect to get from electronics, that they should be very stable to start with. Then one has to consider that these parts get warm when soldered. lol
 
M

MuchoReverbo

Audiophyte
It's hard to understand with all the audio component electrical "break-in" theories out there like capacitor break-in, speaker wire break-in, etc. why used components wouldn't be worth more than brand-new?

After-all... used components would already be broken-in.

Sort of like buying a horse back in the old west days. Wild mustangs were worth less than broke-in ones.

Some cowboy had to take the time to "bust" the horse.

Why aren't there audio electrical and electronic component busters? You know, professionals who make a living breaking in stuff like capacitors and speaker wires? It seems like it could be more than just a job. It could be a way of life.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Why aren't there audio electrical and electronic component busters? You know, professionals who make a living breaking in stuff like capacitors and speaker wires? It seems like it could be more than just a job. It could be a way of life.
Hmmm... you would have to find a lot of ignorant, gullible people to pay you to fix a problem that doesn't exist... ya know, the more I think about it this sounds like a good career opportunity.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It's hard to understand with all the audio component electrical "break-in" theories out there like capacitor break-in, speaker wire break-in, etc. why used components wouldn't be worth more than brand-new?

After-all... used components would already be broken-in.

Sort of like buying a horse back in the old west days. Wild mustangs were worth less than broke-in ones.

Some cowboy had to take the time to "bust" the horse.

Why aren't there audio electrical and electronic component busters? You know, professionals who make a living breaking in stuff like capacitors and speaker wires? It seems like it could be more than just a job. It could be a way of life.
Here ya go http://www.analogueseduction.net/cable-burn-in-service/nordost-vidar-cable-burn-in-service.html
 
A

Ampdog

Audioholic
An EE's reply if you want one:
One funny thing: Coupling capacitors are supposed to be important, since they are "in the signal line". Firstly that supposes that electricity only flows 'in a line' instead of back and forth in a 'circle', fully including the earth.

Then: Any influence a capacitor can have pre-supposes that there is a voltage difference between the electrodes. Coupling capacitors for the most do not have such a difference a.c.wise - they are supposed to be a.c. shorts for most of the audio range. They are simply d.c. blockers, i.e. possibly the least important of the components in the so-called "audio line". (This excludes capacitors doing duty in filters and cross-overs.)
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
An EE's reply if you want one:
One funny thing: Coupling capacitors are supposed to be important, since they are "in the signal line". Firstly that supposes that electricity only flows 'in a line' instead of back and forth in a 'circle', fully including the earth.

Then: Any influence a capacitor can have pre-supposes that there is a voltage difference between the electrodes. Coupling capacitors for the most do not have such a difference a.c.wise - they are supposed to be a.c. shorts for most of the audio range. They are simply d.c. blockers, i.e. possibly the least important of the components in the so-called "audio line". (This excludes capacitors doing duty in filters and cross-overs.)
Not sure that I'm buying into that just yet. How about the impedance variation at different frequencies for a coupling cap?

Modern amps have mostly abandoned the coupling caps in favor of better topologies (i.e. DC offset servo).

I have a couple DIY amps using coupling caps (high quality, of course), and I can't say that I hear any signal degradation.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
How about the impedance variation at different frequencies for a coupling cap?

For caps in most analog audio circuits, the only impedance variations are well below 20 Hz.
 

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