Can't Get My Head Around the "Blur Reduction" Setting on my Samsung...

Kaskade89052

Kaskade89052

Full Audioholic
I have a Samsung NU8000 4K panel, and under the "Auto Motion Plus" menu, which controls the display's motion interpolation, there are two sliders for Blur Reduction and Judder Reduction (in addition to one for black frame insertion, which I don't use because of the horrible flicker it causes). I understand that the Judder Reduction is supposed to affect lower frame rate content, such as 24FPS film sources (which is why I dial some in when watching discs from my 4K Blu-ray player), but for the life of me, I don't understand why Samsung chose to keep the Blur Reduction -- which is supposed to affect higher frame rate content like 60FPS -- on a maximum setting by default when using the TV's Custom Auto Motion Plus mode.

Let me back up a bit...

With the Samsungs, you can choose the Auto Motion Plus system to be off, on an "automatic" setting (which adjusts on the fly, scene by scene, but which I found to introduce MASSIVE amounts of soap opera effect) or on "custom," which allows the user to select separate Blur and Judder Reduction settings via a slider that ranges from 0 to 10. By default, the TV's Movie picture mode (the most accurate and the one I use for my Blu-ray player HDMI input) comes set in a Custom AMP arrangement with Judder Reduction set to "3" and the Blur Reduction set to "10." Used in this way, the panel does eliminate judder in 24FPS sources, but since owning the set I have bumped this up to "5" because it seems to smooth motion even further without any SOE kicking in, as unbelievable as that sounds.

Now, the confusion seems to be with regard to this Blur Reduction slider -- it seems no matter the brand of display, users and even default settings tend to set this control all the way up to maximum for some reason, but if in accurate picture modes like Samsung's "Movie," where accuracy is the goal, why would a manufacturer crank this all the way up? I have read that these Blur Reduction controls actually affect the maximum lines of perceived resolution a panel can provide, which is why they're cranked up like this -- but I don't know if that's true. Further, while I don't own any films on disc that boast higher than 24FPS transfers -- i.e. I don't own Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk or Gemini Man -- I would think watching films with these higher frame rates would be a nightmare with the Blur Reduction control maxed out. Recently, I threw in an old full screen DVD I own of the HBO-made film Gotti, and for whatever reason my Samsung interpreted this transfer as being something higher than 24FPS because the picture had that sped-up video-like look (and exhibited all sorts of nasty side effects because the Blur Reduction control was so high). Outside of this one DVD, EVERY disc I play through any player I've ever had connected to this Samsung 4K panel, whether DVD or Blu-ray, has sent a 2160/24P signal to the TV...even though DVDs come over to the display as 2160/60P. ONLY this one DVD, Gotti, exhibited soap opera effect from the Blur Reduction control being set so high.

Anyway, my primary question is this: Why is Blur Reduction set to maximum by default by manufacturers like Samsung? Is this because they expect people to use the TVs mainly for sports and broadcast viewing, so the maxed-out Blur Reduction makes sense? Should the Blur Reduction be kept all the way up when watching films, as I primarily do, even though it's not affecting 24FPS content, supposedly?

This brings me to another question I've always had about these motion smoothing systems -- are Blur and Judder Reduction TRULY independent of one another, or do their effects "overlap" at some point on the sliders, as I have read too? Interestingly, I get that annoying and classic Samsung "micro-stutter" from time to time when I run Blur on "10" and Judder on "5," which I have read is normal for Samsungs and something they never fixed in their TVs (the picture stutters and twitches for a moment as if the algorithm is trying to catch up to what's happening on the screen -- but it's really fast and subtle). I did some Googling around and found a thread over on AVS in which someone in a Samsung discussion mentioned eliminating the dropped frame problem by leaving Blur on 8 instead of 10, and leaving the Judder on whatever is preferred; for some reason, this individual stated, the motion controls start to affect one another once they get to a high level on the sliders. I don't understand how this is possible, being that one is for low frame rate content and other for high, but when I tried this out, dropping my Blur to 8 and leaving my Judder on 5, it DID seem to eradicate the micro-stutter...for a short time before it reared its head again.

Anyone have any thoughts about this?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
My thoughts...

In review tests, using the most common forms of entertainment that people are likely to view, the majority of people have found that the best looking image uses the settings that you just described.

That is: People are dumb.

More accurately, they LIKE the soap opera effect more than those of us who do not.

The big outcry occurred a few years ago when some manufacturers made it so that you couldn't actually turn those features off and you were stuck with the SOE forever on that otherwise excellent display. This was a short lived issue and for the most part, you can just tweak the video to your liking on displays which have this feature built in.

At the end of the day, TV manufacturers care about selling TVs first. If a TV gets lousy reviews, they have found that it impacts sales. Likewise, if it doesn't look as sharp or as crisp in the store, it impacts sales. So, they have to cover their bases. OLED is often highlighted in special display areas with black surrounds to help show the punch of their black levels. Sometimes removed by a few feet from other displays which may show how much brighter they are. Motion handling, in recent years, seems to be FAR LESS than it was when it was originally debuted. The super obnoxious SOE is tuned down to just help get rid of judder while retaining blur. Blur, IMO, is critical to the TV viewing process as all life around us that has motion, will blur to the human eye.

But, at the end of the day, this is about $$$. Just as it always will be.
 
Kaskade89052

Kaskade89052

Full Audioholic
My thoughts...

In review tests, using the most common forms of entertainment that people are likely to view, the majority of people have found that the best looking image uses the settings that you just described.

That is: People are dumb.

More accurately, they LIKE the soap opera effect more than those of us who do not.

The big outcry occurred a few years ago when some manufacturers made it so that you couldn't actually turn those features off and you were stuck with the SOE forever on that otherwise excellent display. This was a short lived issue and for the most part, you can just tweak the video to your liking on displays which have this feature built in.

At the end of the day, TV manufacturers care about selling TVs first. If a TV gets lousy reviews, they have found that it impacts sales. Likewise, if it doesn't look as sharp or as crisp in the store, it impacts sales. So, they have to cover their bases. OLED is often highlighted in special display areas with black surrounds to help show the punch of their black levels. Sometimes removed by a few feet from other displays which may show how much brighter they are. Motion handling, in recent years, seems to be FAR LESS than it was when it was originally debuted. The super obnoxious SOE is tuned down to just help get rid of judder while retaining blur. Blur, IMO, is critical to the TV viewing process as all life around us that has motion, will blur to the human eye.

But, at the end of the day, this is about $$$. Just as it always will be.
Okay...

But that doesn't answer the question as to why the manufacturers (most of them, anyway) are leaving their Blur Reduction (which affects higher frame rate content) on maximum by default even in ACCURATE picture modes while leaving the Judder Reduction lower; what is the logic behind leaving the Blur Reduction all the way up? To improve sports motion?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
...why the manufacturers (most of them, anyway) are leaving their Blur Reduction (which affects higher frame rate content) on maximum by default even in ACCURATE picture modes while leaving the Judder Reduction lower; what is the logic behind leaving the Blur Reduction all the way up? To improve sports motion?
I would think so. Sports is a major selling point for displays. Movies just aren't. And, people are stupid. Not everyone, but, you know, many of them. If I see SOE in an image, I immediately jump into the menu settings to figure out how to get rid of it. If my brother sees SOE he says "Man! Look how great that is!". So, you know... to each their own I suppose.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Okay...

But that doesn't answer the question as to why the manufacturers (most of them, anyway) are leaving their Blur Reduction (which affects higher frame rate content) on maximum by default even in ACCURATE picture modes while leaving the Judder Reduction lower; what is the logic behind leaving the Blur Reduction all the way up? To improve sports motion?
Because when people see it, it looks different than what they're used to. Simple as that.

Default settings on 99% of displays are garbage.

I remember when every TV came with "vivid" color mode and "motion compensation" turned up to the max. They looked horrific out of the box. Don't know if that's still a thing since the last two TVs I purchased I immediately calibrated.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
I would think so. Sports is a major selling point for displays. Movies just aren't. And, people are stupid. Not everyone, but, you know, many of them. If I see SOE in an image, I immediately jump into the menu settings to figure out how to get rid of it. If my brother sees SOE he says "Man! Look how great that is!". So, you know... to each their own I suppose.
My father in law was the same with his "new" curved Samsung they paid way too much for. Looks terrible. I can't watch it without it driving me nuts.
 
Kaskade89052

Kaskade89052

Full Audioholic
Fellas,

I appreciate the responses, truly...but it's not really getting to the heart of what I'm curious about (in all fairness, it's probably something a Samsung engineer needs to explain to me -- if THEY even can).

I understand the basics about why consumers see the SOE on these TVs and are smitten, and everything associated to that -- what I'm asking has more to do with why the BLUR REDUCTION setting (which affects high frame rate content like video-based material) comes out of the box set to maximum (on Samsungs, at least) while the Judder Reduction is set to a much lower, more reasonable level.

The reason I ask is because no matter what review of whatever TV you read, it always seems to be that the reviewer or responding posts by members of a forum say this "Blur Reduction" SHOULD be all the way up (in the case of Samsung, it's a "10" out of "10" on the slider)...almost every review of the Samsungs, unless the reviewer is leaving the motion system completely off, mentions the Blur Reduction being on 10.

I'm wondering why this is...especially in, as I said, accurate picture modes like Samsung's "Movie."

Let me put it like this: When I watch films on some kind of disc format, which we do almost every evening (whether it's DVD, Blu-ray or 4K Blu-ray), my Panasonic disc player sends these out as "2160/24P" because they were mastered at 24FPS, being film content. When I adjust the TV's JUDDER REDUCTION setting, it is clear that this control is affecting these films because the soap opera effect kicks in and gets more aggressive from level "6" on the slider and higher (I keep it on "5" for this reason).

However, regardless of where I leave the BLUR REDUCTION slider, these 24FPS films are seemingly NOT affected...yet Samsung sets the Blur Reduction at "10" by default in the Movie mode's CUSTOM Auto Motion Plus mode. Interestingly, when I play DVDs, these come in to the TV as "2160/60P," not 24P, yet even so, the BLUR Reduction slider DOESN'T affect them. It's almost like the TV is "sensing" this is "FILM-BASED material" and as such only the JUDDER Reduction slider would affect it...

Am I making sense?

Here's the thing, though -- if I were to put in a disc like Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk or Gemini Man, which were shot in higher frame rates, the BLUR Reduction slider probably WOULD affect them, and so the motion would probably be sickening with the Blur slider all the way up like Samsung sets it (10).

I just don't understand why these manufacturers -- and Samsung is not the only one -- set the Blur Reduction for higher frame rate content to maximum out of the box (while leaving the Judder Reduction, smartly, at a low value). The only thing I can think of is that with this maxed-out setting, all lines of perceived resolution in VIDEO content will be attained -- but does this affect 24FPS content AT ALL? Do the sliders interact? If they do, what should I keep Blur Reduction on when watching 24FPS content from Blu-rays and DVDs...or does it not matter?
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
So, interesting observations.

I'd say based on your experience the blue reduction setting might have to do with the lcd pixel response time. Most tvs have a game mode that sort of does this to reduce lag, but it seems samsung may have a setting specifically for response time without calling it that. Doesn't surprise me cause samsung.

Judder reduction sounds like it's a frame interpolation setting. That's the one that causes the SOE you speak of.

Samsung makes some of the best hardware on the planet, but for some reason they screw it all up with their firmware/software. Good to know things haven't changed in over a decade.

On the other hand, I could be totally wrong. :)
 
Kaskade89052

Kaskade89052

Full Audioholic
Thanks panter.

If the Blur Reduction is affecting/controlling LCD response time -- and, yes, the Judder Reduction appears to be the motion interpolation -- this shouldn't in any way operate in conjunction with the Judder setting, right?

But I suppose my question still remains: Why the maxed-out Blur Reduction setting by default in the Auto Motion Plus system's Custom mode? I understand what you're saying about Samsung as a company, and you're right, but they're not the only ones maxing out this control out of the box -- almost every manufacturer does it, even for their more accurate picture modes like Cinema/Custom etc.

Is this just to maximize response time/resolve all lines of resolution? If so, that only applies to VIDEO sources, not film-based content, doesn't it?

Here's something really strange: Last night I threw on an episode from my Star Trek The Original Series DVD box set, and with my current motion settings -- Blur on 10 and Judder on 5 -- there was NO SOE. I didn't understand this, as TV shows shouldn't be interpreted as FILM content...yet with my Blur maxed out (which affects higher frame rate content), the TV didn't introduce SOE with the Star Trek episode.

Why would this have happened? It was almost as if the TV was interpreting the signal coming from my Blu-ray player as 24FPS content -- but this WASN'T a FILM.
 
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