Can you hear above 20khz? Test files included.

[Johnny2Bad]

That’s something that interests me too. I did an abx test of some high res files (note that I have always been a skeptic on whether there’s benefits to them) and managed to successfully differentiate between the two, the “tightness” of the snare drum and cymbals gave it away, the standard res sounded smeared in comparison. I think it has more to do with the time domain rather than frequency. Humans can resolve temporal differences as short as 6 microseconds, which requires a minimum sampling rate of 166khz. It also requires a speaker capable of an impulse response that fast.

17.5khz is great for your age. You can rest assured you’re not missing anything musical, as most of the harmonics drop off past 16khz (though they often continue up as high as 50khz, but again, that’s more transient information than audible tone)


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There is no absolute requirement to use HiRes Digital as a source; we can go back to LP records and 24-track magnetic tape masters. Phono cartridges can resolve to about 50 KHz relatively easily; Moving Coil transformers have -3dB points of at least 60 KHz and often 100 KHz or higher; a 30 IPS Studer or MCI 24-track can record about 30 KHz and beyond in some cases.

Prior to about 1995 those machines were still commonly used in recording studios. Back in the mid 1970's during the original multi-channel format (Quadrophonic or 4-channel sound) the "other" two channels were encoded in a band between 20 and 45 KHz; the LP playback chain even then had no difficulty retrieving that information.

Somewhat ironically, if you were to dig up an old Pioneer Quadraphonic receiver, play a Quadrophonic album through it, and record that to 2-channel CD resolution, the rear channel information would be lost. Recorded at 24/96, it would be preserved, and played back through a Quadrophonic processor, the back channels would retain their musical information in playback.

There are, of course, other reasons for HiRez digital files to exist; the opportunity to use a more benign filter being the most obvious. Once you have the hardware you can also upsample 16/44 files, and use the same filter.

The most important aspect of digital storage is, you are committing to a format that will reside on your storage media forever. What if, in 10 years time, you want HiRez playback? I see no reason to expect the hardware to be the limiting factor; so it's your software that will cause regret. With hard drive capacity the way it is now, there is no real reason not to store digital HiRez files when available. Some day you may want them, even if you don't see the need today.

 

[TLS Guy]

Messing around with a tone generator, I decided to see just how high my hearing went. I started at 18khz, which was easily audible even at low volumes, at 20khz, i could still easily hear the tone, though I did need a slightly higher volume. At 21khz, at a volume level of 80db, I could still hear the tone clearly. The highest I got before I could no longer hear was 21500hz, which was about as audible as 20khz. 22000hz, at any volume level was completely inaudible. My speakers play pretty cleanly up to about 24khz before breaking up.

here is a 21000hz, 21000, and 20500hz test file. I set the sampling rate to 48khz, since in my experience, some DACs start exhibiting distortion which would skew the test at 19khz with a 44.1khz sample rate. Make sure you set your sound cards sample rate to 48khz, otherwise you will experiencing aliasing. https://www.dropbox.com/s/45diice722dfhr9/Sine_21500.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bllb765y3bbk8s9/Sine_21000.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bdj1ugjayb8gd3/Sine_20500.wav?dl=0

I'm in my early 20s, and have been careful not to do anything to damage my hearing (always worn ear protectors when shooting, never attend live concerts, always listen to music below 85dbA, and work in a quiet job where the most annoying noise comes from the repeating same 10 songs played over the pa )many older guys on here with mild hearing loss will probably struggle to hear above 16khz, and therefore won't even be able to hear the 20khz file.

A lot of people can't hear to 20 KHz ever. I have never been able to hear over 16 KHz even as a teenager. However, I don't have tinnitus yet and can still hear to the 13 to 14 KHz range, so I'm lucky.

In medical school we used to do audiograms on each other, and very few students or staff could hear to 20 KHz.

 

[speakerman39]

A lot of people can't hear to 20 KHz ever. I have never been able to hear over 16 KHz even as a teenager. However, I don't have tinnitus yet and can still hear to the 13 to 14 KHz range, so I'm lucky.

In medical school we used to do audiograms on each other, and very few students or staff could hear to 20 KHz.

When I used to use the Rives Test CD II, I noticed that I could not hear above 16K either. That was at least 10-11 years ago. It is doubtful that my hearing has gotten any better. As such, I can relate to what you are saying. However, I guess there are some people out there that can hear above 16K. Just curious as to how many.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[TLS Guy]

Here is a study out of Brazil, that shows the median hearing curve of 30 to 39 year olds.

Medical studies stop at 16 KHz, because so few people can hear above that.

Actually I have considered about 15 to 16 KHz the practical upper limit of human hearing not 20 KHz.

FM broadcasting for instance has an upper limit of 15 KHz.

 

[Pogre]

Are ear buds sufficient for doing these listening tests? I bought a pair off eBay that @afterlife2 suggested for me. They're cheap, but they sound good and they're not typical iPhone earbuds.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How loud did you turn it? I think I’m lucky in that the tweeters in my speakers are horn loaded, and likely have a sensitivity approaching 105dB. A regular tweeter might easily burn up though. Even though the volume was only high enough at 85dB 9’ away, that’s about 92dB at 1m, give or take. Tweeters usually can only handle about 10w. Most music and movie content has very little sound power at very high frequencies, as most of it is concentrated in the mid bass and midrange.


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Don't remember I used an SPL meter but the power indicator on the Yamaha is pretty good, maybe not at 18k though, and I thought I was careful at around 1 watt but who knows. Expensive lesson, not cheap JBL tweeter.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is no absolute requirement to use HiRes Digital as a source; we can go back to LP records and 24-track magnetic tape masters. Phono cartridges can resolve to about 50 KHz relatively easily; Moving Coil transformers have -3dB points of at least 60 KHz and often 100 KHz or higher; a 30 IPS Studer or MCI 24-track can record about 30 KHz and beyond in some cases.

Prior to about 1995 those machines were still commonly used in recording studios. Back in the mid 1970's during the original multi-channel format (Quadrophonic or 4-channel sound) the "other" two channels were encoded in a band between 20 and 45 KHz; the LP playback chain even then had no difficulty retrieving that information.

Somewhat ironically, if you were to dig up an old Pioneer Quadraphonic receiver, play a Quadrophonic album through it, and record that to 2-channel CD resolution, the rear channel information would be lost. Recorded at 24/96, it would be preserved, and played back through a Quadrophonic processor, the back channels would retain their musical information in playback.

There are, of course, other reasons for HiRez digital files to exist; the opportunity to use a more benign filter being the most obvious. Once you have the hardware you can also upsample 16/44 files, and use the same filter.

The most important aspect of digital storage is, you are committing to a format that will reside on your storage media forever. What if, in 10 years time, you want HiRez playback? I see no reason to expect the hardware to be the limiting factor; so it's your software that will cause regret. With hard drive capacity the way it is now, there is no real reason not to store digital HiRez files when available. Some day you may want them, even if you don't see the need today.

I have never at a tape recorder in my hands that would go above 20 KHz. That was a struggle even at 15 ips with 1/4" tape and 1/8" track width.

Tape heads were also limited in the bass. Only Studer heads can reach 20 Hz.

 

[shadyJ]

For these tests, some of you guys might want to think twice before dumping a ton of current into a single very high frequency in your speakers or earphones, by the way. I wouldn't want to do that very long at all to my speakers. That is a good way to fry the tweeters.

 

[TLS Guy]

For these tests, some of you guys might want to think twice before dumping a ton of current into a single very high frequency in your speakers or earphones, by the way. I wouldn't want to do that very long at all to my speakers. That is a good way to fry the tweeters.

You will blow your ears up as well.

Speakers should never be used.

You need an oscillator and you need to know the voltage it produces. Then you can calculate the spl your headphones deliver.

Now here is the spl that is internationally recognized to be zero db by frequency for audiometry.

So that is 0db. Now you find the level above that that you need to hear that frequency. But you do not go above +25 db. You turn the number -ve to get the loss at that frequency.

 

[yepimonfire]

@TLS Guy
I always thought fm radio sounded veiled compared to digital sources...makes sense why now.

95% of my music consumption is through Spotify, which is vorbis@320kbps. High res is becoming more accessible through things like onkyo music and hd tracks, but unfortunately a lot of the stuff I listen to isn’t available at sampling rates above 44.1khz, if it was, I’d be buying a lot more music.


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[killdozzer]

I was, in fact, serious about my first question. I would like to know whether it's possible to perceive the tweeter working in any other way but your ears.


And another thing:

Make sure you set your sound cards sample rate to 48khz, otherwise you will experiencing aliasing.

Is there a general rule to this? A setting at which you can leave your player and forget about it regardless of the format you're playing?

I know I'm risking ostracizing , but I could swear I heard something different when I switched this setting. I was playing Random Access Memories and I would have hard time explaining the feeling I got. Here's the easiest way; imagine four musicians in front of you, standing few inches a part playing, and then each one of them taking a large side step and continue playing but standing further a part one from another, combined with; you know that situation where a subordinate mumbles a "come-back" to his superior after being yelled at and then the superior challenges him to repeat it, but this time the poor sod gathers some guts and really repeats it with every letter clearly pronounced?

Important info (and I imagine this should cast some doubt to what I'm saying): before 24/48 I had it at 24/44.1

 

[yepimonfire]

I was, in fact, serious about my first question. I would like to know whether it's possible to perceive the tweeter working in any other way but your ears.


And another thing:

Is there a general rule to this? A setting at which you can leave your player and forget about it regardless of the format you're playing?

I know I'm risking ostracizing , but I could swear I heard something different when I switched this setting. I was playing Random Access Memories and I would have hard time explaining the feeling I got. Here's the easiest way; imagine four musicians in front of you, standing few inches a part playing, and then each one of them taking a large side step and continue playing but standing further a part one from another, combined with; you know that situation where a subordinate mumbles a "come-back" to his superior after being yelled at and then the superior challenges him to repeat it, but this time the poor sod gathers some guts and really repeats it with every letter clearly pronounced?

Important info (and I imagine this should cast some doubt to what I'm saying): before 24/48 I had it at 24/44.1

Is your sound card hooked up via analog or spdif/ hdmi? Some cheap soundcards have lousy reconstruction filters that add distortion as low as 17khz in my experience, so setting the sample rate higher will push that distortion into the audible range, secondly, some cheap cards are set to a native sampling rate, and running them below this rate causes them to up sample, sometimes with poor results. If it’s via hdmi, more than likely it’s placebo, since almost all avr dacs oversample as high as 384khz at a 32 bit bit depth.


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[killdozzer]

Still nothing on the tweeter test... What if instead of finding out your ears limitations, you discovered a fowl play on the side of tweeter manufacturer or specs author?

My sound card is Conexant Smart Audio HD, a discreet on board audio device in a Lenovo laptop.

I contacted Conexant to ask for performance details when I noticed that my bookshelves have far more bass and deeper bass than my Grado Prestige Series SR80i and lower level Grado's usually get the "slightly bloated low fq" remark in reviews. But I never heard from them.

 

[highfigh]

Here is a study out of Brazil, that shows the median hearing curve of 30 to 39 year olds.

Medical studies stop at 16 KHz, because so few people can hear above that.

Actually I have considered about 15 to 16 KHz the practical upper limit of human hearing not 20 KHz.

FM broadcasting for instance has an upper limit of 15 KHz.

Medically, there's no good reason to worry about whether people can hear to 20KHz and none of the tests I have taken went past 8K, because the next octave isn't necessary for us to hear speech well and that's the main concern of audiologists, anyway.

I thought the 15KHz limit was to enable closer channel spacing, so the FCC could sell more of them. Also, I'm not sure most audio equipment designers were trying to exceed this limit since old speakers couldn't reproduce that range and it was seen as "good enough".

 

[highfigh]

I have never at a tape recorder in my hands that would go above 20 KHz. That was a struggle even at 15 ips with 1/4" tape and 1/8" track width.

Tape heads were also limited in the bass. Only Studer heads can reach 20 Hz.

Couldn't go above 20KHz, at what level and tolerance? I have seen cassette recorders go from <30Hz to >20KHz, at -20dB, ±3dB. These tests were performed by one of Sony's design engineers (Kato), who was responsible for all of their TC-Kxxx models of cassette machines and many of their open reel models, on either B&K or BPI test equipment.

 

[KEW]

I was, in fact, serious about my first question. I would like to know whether it's possible to perceive the tweeter working in any other way but your ears.

My first though is if you had something like tinsel (from Christmas), you could tape it to the baffle so it hung loose directly over the tweeter, you would see it blur/vibrate (especially at the edges). Perhaps Saran wrap would do the same, but you may need to shine a flashlight on it from an oblique angle to better see the vibration.

I not positive either of these would work well, but easy enough to try! Start with lower frequencies you can hear and see what happens as you increase the frequency.

 

[killdozzer]

Thanks. I was wondering how would I determine the tweeter is doing something at all if not by ear.

I was half-way through devising an elaborate scheme involving dogs. So Fido sends his love. Close call.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I have never at a tape recorder in my hands that would go above 20 KHz. That was a struggle even at 15 ips with 1/4" tape and 1/8" track width.

Tape heads were also limited in the bass. Only Studer heads can reach 20 Hz.

"Limited" in the bass to about 35 Hz at the highest speeds. As speed drops the LF limit drops. If you needed 20 Hz, your dropped a speed and carried on. Well after digital took over the pro recording space, the studio's tape deck was still pencilled in for laying down drum tracks.

Cassette decks with metal tape had -3dB points of 22KHz.

STUDER and MCI studio decks recorded at 30 IPS, not 15 (which is a consumer standard), on 2-inch wide tape. Of course they manufactured decks for a variety of users, right down to open reel machines at 15/16 IPS (so-called "loggers") which were used by radio stations who were required by law to keep a record of the broadcasts, and by police in surveillance.

I spoke to the STUDER rep at the Western Association of Broadcast Engineers convention in 1977, who proudly told me they had just sold 35 logger to the RCMP in Regina (Sask, Canada). At the time wiretapping was illegal in Canada, and would remain so for just over a decade (after a scandal involving, in part, RCMP wiretapping of Quebec separatists).

Dolby NR (studio grade, not Dolby B or C) and DBX noise reduction was routinely used in recording studios going back to the 1970's (1960's for Dolby), a record level of 45dB resulted in a S/N of 90 dB, and significantly, enjoyed the frequency response and headroom (freedom from saturation) of a 45 dB record level, -20dB from the 0dB point, which itself is about 10dB short of the saturation point, and the frequency response standard in magnetic tape decks. In other words, meeting the spec.

The TEAC A-860 (pictured, above), a deck I have used, with 1/7/8 IPS and ⅛" tape with a track width of 1/32 inch had a specified 20Hz~20KHz frequency response at -20Vu (the cassette measuring standard) and 90 dB SNR with DBX at -20Vu. I measured this deck; it easily exceeded spec.

The TEAC C1 MK II, another cassette deck, has a specified frequency response of 20 to 22 Khz out of the box.

What do you suppose a STUDER with 2 inch tape at 30 IPS could achieve? All STUDER open reels are specified at 0Vu at 30 IPS, -10Vu at 15 IPS, and -20Vu at 7.5 IPS (the same level cassette decks are spec'd at).

From a test report in Modern Recording and Music magazine, using half-inch Maxell UD XL II tape (normal bias, and not the AMPEX 456 the unit was calibrated for and the tape used in recording studios almost exclusively) on a STUDER B-67 (1978):

"In all cases [whether measured at 7,5, 15 or 30 IPS) frequency response was ruler flat to well above 20 KHz" ... "outstanding 77 dB SNR" [without any NR]. Note that STUDER's specs are 40 Hz to 20 KHz 30 IPS 0Vu and SNR of 71 dB, extremely conservative, which was their practice.

Measured frequency response, Maxell UD-II tape; ½"
37Hz to 24.5 KHz, +0/-2dB, 30 IPS at 0Vu
23Hz to 24.5 KHz, +0/-2dB, 15 IPS at -10Vu
16 Hz to 21.5 KHz +0/-2dB 7.5 IPS at -20Vu

At -20 Vu and 30 ips with DBX NR, these decks were known to have a -2dB point in excess of 30 KHz at -2dB and better than 90 dB SNR.

 

[Dale Doback]

About 10 years ago, my hearing stopped @ about 15 KHz. I should go get tested again.

 

[yepimonfire]

My first though is if you had something like tinsel (from Christmas), you could tape it to the baffle so it hung loose directly over the tweeter, you would see it blur/vibrate (especially at the edges). Perhaps Saran wrap would do the same, but you may need to shine a flashlight on it from an oblique angle to better see the vibration.

I not positive either of these would work well, but easy enough to try! Start with lower frequencies you can hear and see what happens as you increase the frequency.

Use rew and plug an audyssey mic in and use the spl meter set to z weighting, it will pick up frequencies as high as 50khz in my experience.


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