Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[cpp]

Point I'm trying to make. It's a military weapon, not civilian.

Well you should have noted that, ya left a big hole there. " they are not manufactured anyway.". But yes, no more civilian ownership of the new stuff.

 

[TankTop5]

Let’s see how Chevron plays out with the ATF… and everywhere else for that matter

 

[3db]

While I concede there is some validity to your points many in the US see the Right to Bear Arms as an essential freedom, I am one of them as are about 100 million others to be conservative. The issue is both sides rely on the argument that boils down to, why won’t the other side just agree with us that “this” is a problem? That point of view and argument will never accomplish anything so it’s time to look to what both sides can agree are issues that need to be addressed like mental health, inner city crime etc… Gun crime in America is a huge problem but suicide is even bigger with domestic violence following closely behind. While mass shootings grab headlines and garner attention they are about 1% of gun deaths in America. We have a morality problem, cultural problem and mental health problem. We have the resources to address these issues but politicians would rather play politics and pander to their base instead of attempting to do anything worthwhile.

That ammendment was written back in the day when the US came into being as a country onto itself and not a British colony. There was a requirement for that "right to bare arms" back then but its no longer valid in today's society to go against a tyranical government in the US. It didn't stop Trump from stirring up the stupid and Trump is one of most tyranical presidents the US ever had.

The two biggest issues in the US now is this outdated right of "right to bare arms" and that convicted felons should never be allowed to run for the president.

 

[TankTop5]

That ammendment was written back in the day when the US came into being as a country onto itself and not a British colony. There was a requirement for that "right to bare arms" back then but its no longer valid in today's society to go against a tyranical government in the US. It didn't stop Trump from stirring up the stupid and Trump is one of most tyranical presidents the US ever had.

The two biggest issues in the US now is this outdated right of "right to bare arms" and that convicted felons should never be allowed to run for the president.

There are a lot of Americans who would disagree about the need to remove a tyrannical government. I for one as an avid gun owner am terrified of the thought of revolution, despise the thought of using a firearm for self defense (exception if it was for my teenage daughter) and I’ve never hunted and don’t think I could pull the trigger on an animal. That said nobody knows the future and how far things could fall.

 

[Dude#1279435]

I have seen reports of shootings (mass, or not) and they never mentioned mental illness. Going into a school, mall, workplace, government place or in the open and ripping off a few magazines can't be the act of someone who could be described as 'in good mental health'.

Full-auto is heavily regulated, everything else is regulated, but not to the same degree, but private sales are almost impossible to control.

As for your comment about all guns needing a background check, they do. Look for the NICS application and other info- it's all available online.

Do you actually know any gun owners? Ask them about their views, as long as they aren't on the fringe of the NRA.

Do I need to know gun owners to understand their thinking? No, gun regulations are an umbrella law.

 

[highfigh]

Do I need to know gun owners to understand their thinking? No, gun regulations are an umbrella law.

You can't understand this from a distance and you're still not admitting that bad people are causing the problems. Bad people exist- don't feel bad about admitting that. Were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc good people?

This shouldn't happen, but it did. Nobody who indiscriminately shoots into a house or car should have a gun, but they get their grubby hands on them.

After 13 people shot Wednesday, Milwaukee leaders say it's time to 'double down' on violence prevention efforts

There were seven shooting incidents in total Wednesday. Four of them had more than one victim, an indicator that they could have involved high-capacity firearms.

www.jsonline.com

 

[TankTop5]

Do I need to know gun owners to understand their thinking? No, gun regulations are an umbrella law.

The facts are gun rights in America are here to stay and regulations are getting overturned consistently. American citizens own about half of all small arms in earth, that’s all militaries, police and private individuals combined. Your complaint at this point is equal to saying it’s hot outside, nothing is going to change in regards to gun ownership in America, the argument is dead. So let’s start to address what we can like crime and mental health, two things that both sides can come to some agreement on.

 

[Dude#1279435]

You can't understand this from a distance and you're still not admitting that bad people are causing the problems. Bad people exist- don't feel bad about admitting that. Were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc good people?

This shouldn't happen, but it did. Nobody who indiscriminately shoots into a house or car should have a gun, but they get their grubby hands on them.

After 13 people shot Wednesday, Milwaukee leaders say it's time to 'double down' on violence prevention efforts

There were seven shooting incidents in total Wednesday. Four of them had more than one victim, an indicator that they could have involved high-capacity firearms.

www.jsonline.com

I think I can understand it from a distance. It was I who said a shotgun, regardless of homicide %, need a BC. Because then a mentally ill person might wandering around with one. I think that is implying I recognize the ill.

Also, gun owners like their excesses. Hence why guns are regulated to handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows etc. They are already new & improved, and probably have more firepower than ever before. I tend to think a modified AK is an example of trying to push the boundaries. Or a bump stock. The decline of shotgun sales could suggest it takes too long to reload, and therefore wanting more reloading, at a faster rate etc. More, more, more.....

FA's (or simply machine gunes) had to be banned by the feds. Otherwise it's like *hoping* all 50 states do the right thing. Most would, but where there's $$$ to be made......

 

[TankTop5]

I think I can understand it from a distance. It was I who said a shotgun, regardless of homicide %, need a BC. Because then a mentally ill person might wandering around with one. I think that is implying I recognize the ill.

Also, gun owners like their excesses. Hence why guns are regulated to handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows etc. They are already new & improved, and probably have more firepower than ever before. I tend to think a modified AK is an example of trying to push the boundaries. Or a bump stock. The decline of shotgun sales could suggest it takes too long to reload, and therefore wanting more reloading, at a faster rate etc. More, more, more.....

FA's (or simply machine gunes) had to be banned by the feds. Otherwise it's like *hoping* all 50 states do the right thing. Most would, but where there's $$$ to be made......

You do need a BC to purchase a shotgun just like every other firearm.

Just like everyone else in virtually any hobby gun owners live their excesses, it’s not unique *cough* hifi.

There are tons of semi auto magazine fed shotguns that can be reloaded just like any other semi auto rifle.

This isn’t an insult but your lack of understanding on firearms is very apparent, it’s ok though as it’s just not one of your interests. You may want to rephrase your comments as questions rather than statements. As with anything informed opinions are generally much more respected than uninformed.

edited for grammar

 

[Dude#1279435]

You do need a BC to purchase a shotgun just like every other firearm.

Just like everyone else in virtually any hobby gun owners live their excesses, it’s not unique *cough* hifi.

There are tons of semi auto magazine fed shotguns that can be reloaded just like any other semi auto rifle.

This isn’t an insult but your lack of understanding on firearms is very apparent, it’s ok though as it’s just not one of your interests. You may want to rephrase your comments as questions rather than statements. As with anything informed opinions are generally much more respected than uninformed.

edited for grammar

It was highfigh who said the homicide rates were low with shotguns. Implying I guess that they don't need BC's, or that shotguns are too heavy. I dunno.... it's why I said shotguns need BC's too. Cause I don't care about acknowledging the mentally ill.

So if I need a deeper understanding on firearms, tell me what specifically it is I need to understand? Or that guns in culture can be kind of its own religion(!). Talking about guns as if they are a loaf of bread, or wifi, the equivalence isn't there.

 

[highfigh]

The facts are gun rights in America are here to stay and regulations are getting overturned consistently. American citizens own about half of all small arms in earth, that’s all militaries, police and private individuals combined. Your complaint at this point is equal to saying it’s hot outside, nothing is going to change in regards to gun ownership in America, the argument is dead. So let’s start to address what we can like crime and mental health, two things that both sides can come to some agreement on.

But, it's hard to deny that people who shouldn't have guns need to be blocked- felons have theoretically lost this right, but they violate the order every day.

From the first link, "Firearm-related intimate partner homicides increase by 22% as Supreme Court decides if domestic abusers can be prohibited from possessing guns.". Domestic Violence calls also result in the death of many officers due to the fast esclation of those situations.

Firearm Intimate Partner Homicides | Brady

Firearm-Related Intimate Partner Homicides Increase by 22% as Supreme Court Decides if Domestic Abusers can be Prohibited from Possessing Guns

www.bradyunited.org

From the next link, "“Under federal law, abusers are prohibited from purchasing, possessing, borrowing, storing, or carrying firearms at any time.".

Once again, they're not obeying the laws, are they?

DOJ Charges 500+ Domestic Violence-Related Firearm Cases In FY20 | ATF

Today, the Department of Justice announced it has charged more than 500 domestic violence cases involving firearms during Fiscal Year (FY) 2020. A Department priority since 2019 when Attorney General William P. Barr created the Department of Justice’s first ever-Domestic Violence Working Group...

www.atf.gov

We can't let everyone have a gun, only the ones who haven't lost the right and anyone who can't pass a more rigorous application. As I have posted many times, the current NICS application is too easy to pass, by lying.

 

[cpp]

The decline of shotgun sales could suggest it takes too long to reload,

Where do you find this stuff ? provide a link

 

[highfigh]

I think I can understand it from a distance. It was I who said a shotgun, regardless of homicide %, need a BC. Because then a mentally ill person might wandering around with one. I think that is implying I recognize the ill.

Also, gun owners like their excesses. Hence why guns are regulated to handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows etc. They are already new & improved, and probably have more firepower than ever before. I tend to think a modified AK is an example of trying to push the boundaries. Or a bump stock. The decline of shotgun sales could suggest it takes too long to reload, and therefore wanting more reloading, at a faster rate etc. More, more, more.....

FA's (or simply machine gunes) had to be banned by the feds. Otherwise it's like *hoping* all 50 states do the right thing. Most would, but where there's $$$ to be made......

You make too many assumptions, like the one about gun owners liking their excesses- many only buy, want or think they need one. IMO, anyone who believes they need an arsenal in their own home needs to move to a safer place. OTOH, when criminals can drive to almost every location, where is anyone truly safe? You also don't seem to understand if/why an AR can be more dangerous than a 9mm or other pistol. It's more accurate at longer distances, but the projectile is much smaller than a 9mm or .45 caliber although it has a lot more gunpowder pushing it. Neither is dangerous if the shooter is unable to hit their target. What modifications are you referring to? Most are for personalizing it- they won't add to the effectiveness and being semi-automatically fired, a pistol can fire at the same rate of rounds/minute- one shot/trigger pull. Modifying an AR won't make it into a Howitzer.

Pistols can be hidden very easily- that's their appeal to criminals. Also, they make a small hole on the part of the victim that can be seen unless the victim lands in a way that shows the back of their head. Ever see what a shotgun does? It's much more gory. I knew someone who ended his own life using a shotgun- I won't post the description I was given by one of the cops whop responded, but I believe this incident contributed to that cop being drunk every time I saw him after he retired. I don't think even hardened criminals want to see this kind of injury.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Where do you find this stuff ? provide a link

It's my interpretation. That's all. I imagine shotguns are heavier. Take longer to reload etc. Not the ideal choice for a killer. But noone the less need to BC'd from a killer. If there even were easier method with shotgun reload, it kind of defeats the point IMO. There's something about pausing putting a couple more rounds in and having the clay launch. Not that I'm a gun guy though.

 

[Dude#1279435]

You make too many assumptions, like the one about gun owners liking their excesses- many only buy, want or think they need one. IMO, anyone who believes they need an arsenal in their own home needs to move to a safer place. OTOH, when criminals can drive to almost every location, where is anyone truly safe? You also don't seem to understand if/why an AR can be more dangerous than a 9mm or other pistol. It's more accurate at longer distances, but the projectile is much smaller than a 9mm or .45 caliber although it has a lot more gunpowder pushing it. Neither is dangerous if the shooter is unable to hit their target. What modifications are you referring to? Most are for personalizing it- they won't add to the effectiveness and being semi-automatically fired, a pistol can fire at the same rate of rounds/minute- one shot/trigger pull. Modifying an AR won't make it into a Howitzer.

Pistols can be hidden very easily- that's their appeal to criminals. Also, they make a small hole on the part of the victim that can be seen unless the victim lands in a way that shows the back of their head. Ever see what a shotgun does? It's much more gory. I knew someone who ended his own life using a shotgun- I won't post the description I was given by one of the cops whop responded, but I believe this incident contributed to that cop being drunk every time I saw him after he retired. I don't think even hardened criminals want to see this kind of injury.

Yep, they like their excesses. A modified AK is bring the military into the civilian. Eh eh. Can't let you have the real thing. Same with bump stocks. Somewhere between a semi and full I'm guessing. Trying to push the boundaries. In that regard I can actually agree with SC decision. They were taking the definition of a FA and said a bump stock doesn't meet the definition. It's trying to get closer though.

 

[TankTop5]

But, it's hard to deny that people who shouldn't have guns need to be blocked- felons have theoretically lost this right, but they violate the order every day.

From the first link, "Firearm-related intimate partner homicides increase by 22% as Supreme Court decides if domestic abusers can be prohibited from possessing guns.". Domestic Violence calls also result in the death of many officers due to the fast esclation of those situations.

Firearm Intimate Partner Homicides | Brady

Firearm-Related Intimate Partner Homicides Increase by 22% as Supreme Court Decides if Domestic Abusers can be Prohibited from Possessing Guns

www.bradyunited.org

From the next link, "“Under federal law, abusers are prohibited from purchasing, possessing, borrowing, storing, or carrying firearms at any time.".

Once again, they're not obeying the laws, are they?

DOJ Charges 500+ Domestic Violence-Related Firearm Cases In FY20 | ATF

Today, the Department of Justice announced it has charged more than 500 domestic violence cases involving firearms during Fiscal Year (FY) 2020. A Department priority since 2019 when Attorney General William P. Barr created the Department of Justice’s first ever-Domestic Violence Working Group...

www.atf.gov

We can't let everyone have a gun, only the ones who haven't lost the right and anyone who can't pass a more rigorous application. As I have posted many times, the current NICS application is too easy to pass, by lying.

I agree 100%. NICS needs to be fixed as many states are not reporting crime data to the FBI hence the incorrect crime data we are seeing. I also think private sales should require a background check nationally but again it’s near impossible to regulate. Finally I’m not apposed to Red Flag laws so long as there is due process and people aren’t loosing their rights simply from an accusation.

Bad people will always find ways to do bad things regardless of laws, oddly criminals don’t follow the law.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Maybe that's a rifle not a shotgun for clay. I really don't know. I'm sure someone can tell me what kind of animal a shotgun is used for. Clays and that feels like your blowing the stratosphere LOL.

 

[highfigh]

It was highfigh who said the homicide rates were low with shotguns. Implying I guess that they don't need BC's, or that shotguns are too heavy. I dunno.... it's why I said shotguns need BC's too. Cause I don't care about acknowledging the mentally ill.

So if I need a deeper understanding on firearms, tell me what specifically it is I need to understand? Or that guns in culture can be kind of its own religion(!). Talking about guns as if they are a loaf of bread, or wifi, the equivalence isn't there.

And if you didn't check the stats, you really need to- would you accept your arguments as a parent or teacher? I hope not. You inferred that I meant shotgun buyers don't need a BC and you definitely missed the part where we posted that they do. Deal with facts, not just opinions and assumptions.

The mentally ill can't be separate from this problem because they kill an incredible number of people and if you refuse to read the data, you're just acting like an Ostrich with its head in the sand. Maybe offering some kind of way to stop the mentally ill from getting guns would be better than just posting the eye roll emoji. The stigma needs to end.

One of the reasons you should (and I don't usually like using the word 'should') talk to some gun owners is because the views of the ones who take their responsibility seriously will probably surprise you. People ho have been trained (or educated themselves) have seen the rules of firearm use- this is often referred to as Col. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety:

- RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
- RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
- RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
- RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Those seem to be a way to avoid hitting someone or something unintentionally but I'll guess you won't infer that.

safetyrules

 

[highfigh]

Maybe that's a rifle not a shotgun for clay. I really don't know. I'm sure someone can tell me what kind of animal a shotgun is used for. Clays and that feels like your blowing the stratosphere LOL.

Deer and other large game animals require a large bore shotgun, but pellets aren't as effective as a slug. Smaller game loads for waterfowl use a variety of shot pellets. Pest animals are often eliminated with a shotgun, too. Also, many shotguns have a rifled barrel, which increases accuracy (slugs) or creates a wider spread of the pellets.

Shotgun Shot Size and Shells Explained (What to Use When)

Shotguns are suitable for all sportsmen, from novice hunters to experienced sporting clay shooters. However, it's easy to become overwhelmed when you first

outdoorempire.com

Shotguns are used for clay targets (in the air or on the ground) because the shells aren't loaded the same as for game and the pellets don't carry as far in the air. Firing a rifle at airborne targets would be stupid and deadly over a much longer distance.

 

[cpp]

It's my interpretation. That's all. I imagine shotguns are heavier. Take longer to reload etc. Not the ideal choice for a killer. But noone the less need to BC'd from a killer. If there even were easier method with shotgun reload, it kind of defeats the point IMO. There's something about pausing putting a couple more rounds in and having the clay launch. Not that I'm a gun guy though.

Stop with claiming statistics that are wrong. Your sounding like Trump. Yes your not a gun guy and it shows with your lack of knowledge and even understanding.