Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[highfigh]

Total number of firearms in the community have risen back to pre 1996 levels... we have a larger population now, and Gun crimes are well controlled - still the prevalence of firearms is something that needs to be kept in focus.

Over the last couple of years, two different groups of gun purchase applicants has grown because they can buy legally- women and Black men. Both want to be able to protect themselves. That has led to giant increases in sales. It's also a new opportunity for thieves to get their hands on guns because so many aren't careful about storage. THAT needs to change.

 

[highfigh]

That's the biggest issue, but it doesn't get discussed because to even broach it in the US would just cause RWNJ's heads to scream about conspiracies to confiscate their guns.

If I thought ATF, etc would get the proper warrants and present it as a genuine attempt to increase safety, I think they could sweep areas of high crime/high numbers of known felons, block by block, house by house and restrict movement in the surrounding areas during the sweeps, to find illegal weapons and check the legality of guns in possession. This would surely be dragged out in court because someone would argue that it violates the 4th Amendment regarding search & siezure and it might work, but only if they can prove Constitutionality. Then, there's the question of what should be done with everyone who will be arrested.

To be honest, I think the people who are absolutely sure the government is poised to take everyone's guns need to pound sand. The real problem is in the number of gun deaths on a daily basis.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Ahhhh, the classic rebuttal used by most liberals with little to no knowledge of firearms !

While you would be correct in many areas, I doubt that you know much about the various disciplines that involve handguns to which many are designed with a primary function outside of 'defensive purposes'.

I've owned 2 hunting rifles. I've never owned a shotgun, but borrowed a couple for bird hunting. Over my military career, I fired, disassembled, cleaned and reassembled: light machine guns, sub-machine guns (2 types), assault rifles (2 types) and pistols (2 types). I won't claim to know everything about small arms, but I know more than the average liberal or conservative.

If the primary purpose of a handgun isn't for shooting people, please enlighten me.

 

[GO-NAD!]

No statement to finish. People kill people is my point and they will use anything they can do it. People can chat about gun control and have been for as long as I have been alive, hell it all started back in 1934 with The National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, and its still going on today in this country. Nothing will ever change. Sad yes, but 90 freaking years and its still going, there is more hate than ever, rudeness is everywhere.

But my point is that too many people die from firearms who would not have otherwise, no matter what other methods or weapons are out there.

 

[highfigh]

Done with COVID? Do you mean is it still circulating? Or, has everyone just moved on and are pretending it doesn't exist anymore?

People are still getting it, but it isn't nearly as virulent as earlier variants. I had my second bout in February and it was like a very mild cold. While there are some people wearing masks in public, it's pretty rare.

I get the logic presented by some that the answer to bad guys with guns is more good guys with guns. We occasionally hear stories where the bad guy was stopped by a good guy with a gun. But, where it gets more complicated is that the gun owned by a good guy is also a potential crime gun. It good get lost or stolen. It could be taken from the good guy by a bad guy in a confrontation. In other words, having more good guys carrying sounds like a good idea until you consider all the ramifications.

Then there are the "good" guys who were good right up to the point that they became bad or - at best - very stupid.

Common mistakes, uncommon reactions in 4 separate shootings | AP News

The guys responsible for Ahmaud Arbery's death weren't criminals until they chased him down and killed him.

I dare anyone to say George Zimmerman was being a good guy with a gun when he killed Trayvon Martin. Same with Kyle Rittenhouse. In fact, Rittenhouse was too stupid to be accepted by the Marines.

Woman Who Shot at Home Depot Shoplifters Sentenced to 18 mos | TIME

The above incidents range from gross stupidity to underlying malevolence. All shooters were in legal possession. Even with the best of intentions, carrying a firearm can encourage people to initiate or intervene in confrontations where better judgement might have suggested other actions. Call it 9mm bravery...

Then there's this:
Many mass shooters acquire guns legally (axios.com)

The big picture: From 1966 to 2019, 77% of mass shooters purchased at least some of the weapons used in the shootings legally, per data compiled by the National Institute of Justice, a research agency of the Department of Justice.

• Many mass shootings in the U.S. after 2019 have also underscored the same reality.
• Illegal purchases were made by just 13% of mass shooters, per the data, which also notes that 32.5% of mass shooting cases could not be confirmed.
• More than 80% of the assailants responsible for K-12 shootings stole their guns from family members, per the National Institute of Justice.

So no, I don't agree that putting more guns in circulation will help. While there are incidents where the "good guy with a gun" saved the day, when I look at the big picture, I see a cure that is worse than the disease.

Yes, we have to address the issue on our side of the border. But, the bad guys here are being helped by bad guys on your side and the vast quantity of firearms available in the US. We can't address that. We should start a "war on guns", because the war on drugs was so successful?

Coincidentally:
3 from Brampton charged with alleged weapons trafficking in U.S. | CBC News

Those bad guys from Brampton had help from bad guys in the US.

I agree somewhat - I think legislation won't help. But, only because it's too late - there are already too many firearms in circulation.

Getting people to change their behaviour? There will always be bad, stupid and crazy people. You address that problem by restricting access to firearms. However, when there are so many in circulation, bad, stupid and crazy people find a way...

I agree- some good guys with guns do something very stupid and they lose possession to criminals- it happens with cops far too often, too. Leaving an unsecured gun in a car (very common) should result in at least a thorough investigation and if a cop does this, serious consequences should follow. Some kind of mandatory change should happen but even if they have to train weekly for years, it won't necessarily make some stop being stupid about securing weapons.

Arbery was murdered by a pair of rednecks, but since those rednecks lived among others like them, they weren't seen as a problem. Zimmerman was too gung ho- AFAIK, he wasn't in immediate peril. Rittenhouse was 17, Kenosha was under a curfew and minors shouldn't have been outside. Nobody asked him to go there, he should have been disarmed as soon as he showed up. He did, however, protect himself from attacks but that really doesn't excuse him for anything and he seems to be as smart as a rock.

These and others go along with my thoughts that the application for firearm purchases needs to be more thorough. It's too easy to lie about several questions that definitely matter. I knew someone who got a job at Gander Mountain, just to be able to buy more guns and ammo at a discount, so he could hoard them. He and his family are hunters, but he was suck a wacko that he stopped inviting friends to their land "because they might shoot a deer that should have been his". Those are the words he used. Serious anger control problems- if I were asked, I would never recommend that he have more than a cap gun and I'm not sure I want him to have any caps.

The application process needs to be changed, but with so many people, it's incredibly hard to handle all of them. AI might be able to sort them quickly, but I don't want to hand that over until it proves to be infallible and I'm not holding my breath.

Mental health is a huge problem that isn't being addressed. That needed to change more than 30 years ago and the annual deaths from suicide proves it- roughly twice the number of deaths from guns from homicides.

Mass shooting numbers are a relatively small % of the total- daily shootings are far more frequent and far more people die because of them, but national coverage of mass shootings can cause copycat repeats- I would bet that if the coverage wasn't done by slamming it in everyone's face, the number would drop significantly. Until then, it will remain the way it is.

Too many who don't need to carry frequently do and road rage is causing people to do stupid things, just because they have gun. This includes leaving them where they can be stolen.

Domestic violence incidents involve guns very often and in many cases, a felon has the gun.

Many shootings are the result of an argument that would have ended with a fist fight but now, it's just an excuse to use a gun.

Some of the most tragic deaths are the result of young kids finding a gun and not all of the gun owners have them legally.

Schools had stopped placing armed people, mainly Police officers, because of the 'Defund the Police' sentiments, as well as "Police scare me" feelings. IMO, better to be scared than dead- who's worse- the cop or the shooter?

Gun free zones- like shooting fish in a barrel.

People can change, but staying the same is easier.

 

[highfigh]

I've owned 2 hunting rifles. I've never owned a shotgun, but borrowed a couple for bird hunting. Over my military career, I fired, disassembled, cleaned and reassembled: light machine guns, sub-machine guns (2 types), assault rifles (2 types) and pistols (2 types). I won't claim to know everything about small arms, but I know more than the average liberal or conservative.

If the primary purpose of a handgun isn't for shooting people, please enlighten me.

Hand guns are called 'sidearm' in the military, for backup or close quarters. Since they aren't as accurate when used by someone who hasn't handled or fired one, training is required. The two reasons some might own hand guns is because they enjoy target practice and competition among friends and in leagues. I don't know if they track this WRT gun crimes (separate from shootings) and actual shootings, but I think they should. If it turns out that these gun owners are involved in gun crimes and shootings, restrict ownership and scale down the caliber. The other is in collecting.

It's time to ask the right questions in the application- maybe a psych evaluation could help, but that could cause a long legal battle.

It's time to stop thinking this is the Wild West. Glorifying violence dulls the reactions to blood & gore. Think about what would shock people to their core 50-70 years ago- many times, it didn't even involve violence. Now, people shrug off mass shootings and planes flying into tall buildings.

 

[highfigh]

Yes we had two mass attacks... with knives.

The key point to take home here, is that in an environment with ready/easy/uncontrolled firearm availability, those attacks would have been with a firearm, most likely an assault rifle in the US... and the likely deaths would have been several multiples of the casualties experienced.

The availability of an automatic/semi-automatic firearm, is the equivalent of pouring petrol on a BBQ.... yeah you can get burnt without it - but it makes a bad situation a heck of a lot worse.

Fully automatic weapons aren't 'available' unless a lot of money changes hands and a more thorough background check, etc happens. Illegal devices and 30-100 round magazines for Glock pistols are available, but they shouldn't be. They make a regular pistol into a machine gun.

 

[Mikado463]

I've owned 2 hunting rifles. I've never owned a shotgun, but borrowed a couple for bird hunting. Over my military career, I fired, disassembled, cleaned and reassembled: light machine guns, sub-machine guns (2 types), assault rifles (2 types) and pistols (2 types). I won't claim to know everything about small arms, but I know more than the average liberal or conservative.

If the primary purpose of a handgun isn't for shooting people, please enlighten me.

My point is this(you missed it), there are many 'handguns' that are designed for various other means, hunting, various and other specific competitive forms shooting. While any those have the capability to 'kill' that is NOT their intended purpose.

With regards to the large amount of handguns 'out there' and the irresponsible gun owners in possession of such I agree there is a problem. As for the out of control criminal element and guns.......... let's just say I believe in Capital punishment.

 

[GO-NAD!]

My point is this(you missed it), there are many 'handguns' that are designed for various other means, hunting, various and other specific competitive forms shooting. While any those have the capability to 'kill' that is NOT their intended purpose.

With regards to the large amount of handguns 'out there' and the irresponsible gun owners in possession of such I agree there is a problem. As for the out of control criminal element and guns.......... let's just say I believe in Capital punishment.

The primary purpose of handguns is shooting people. I will stand by that statement. Competitive/target shooting? That's a secondary use. They weren't designed for that purpose. They often use people-shaped targets*. I wonder why that is? Maybe to pretend you're shooting a person?
If you know of any designed for hunting, I'd be curious as to what ones. Sounds stupid to me.

*Except Olympic-type competitions, using specifically designed pistols. These are a small minority.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think I've said all I have to say on this topic. I think I've made myself pretty clear on where I stand. So, don't be offended if I don't respond to any more replies.

Cheers,

 

[cpp]

But my point is that too many people die from firearms who would not have otherwise, no matter what other methods or weapons are out there.

That's a true statement. School and inside auditoriums shootings for one could have all been prevented.

 

[Mikado463]

The primary purpose of handguns is shooting people. I will stand by that statement. Competitive/target shooting? That's a secondary use. They weren't designed for that purpose. They often use people-shaped targets*. I wonder why that is? Maybe to pretend you're shooting a person?
If you know of any designed for hunting, I'd be curious as to what ones. Sounds stupid to me.

*Except Olympic-type competitions, using specifically designed pistols. These are a small minority.

While your mind is made up with regards to the purpose of 'all' handguns I will enlighten you on your hunting question.

here is but one, one of the most accurate long range hunting pistols of all time.......

Remington XP-100 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GO-NAD!]

While your mind is made up with regards to the purpose of 'all' handguns I will enlighten you on your hunting question.

here is but one, one of the most accurate long range hunting pistols of all time.......

Remington XP-100 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. May be accurate for a pistol, but would easily be bested by a rifle. OK, now I'm done.

 

[cpp]

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. May be accurate for a pistol, but would easily be bested by a rifle. OK, now I'm done.

Of course a rifle would best it, this is a handgun, no different than a Thompson Contender.

 

[Mikado463]

Of course a rifle would best it, this is a handgun, no different than a Thompson Contender.

Agreed and while a rifle could 'best' it, many could not !

I shot 100yd bench rest (6ppc) for years and while my action of choice was a modified 40X, I know of quite a few fellow competitors shooting the XP100 action mated to a superb custom barrel.

 

[cpp]

Agreed and while a rifle could 'best' it, many could not !

I shot 100yd bench rest (6ppc) for years and while my action of choice was a modified 40X, I know of quite a few fellow competitors shooting the XP100 action mated to a superb custom barrel.

Agree. Accurate and a blast to shoot.

 

[TankTop5]

A couple points….

most gun crime in America is in specific cities, cut those cities out of the equation and US gun crime is almost zero.

American citizens own almost half of all firearms globally, that includes all the military’s and police of planet Earth. If guns were the problem Americas gun crime would be astronomical… it’s a moral and inter city issue where illegal gun ownership and gangs are a problem.

These are just facts, feel free to debate them.

Gun ownership in rural America is rediculous where many people own dozens if not hundreds of guns and gun crime statistically is almost zero.

 

[dlaloum]

Fully automatic weapons aren't 'available' unless a lot of money changes hands and a more thorough background check, etc happens. Illegal devices and 30-100 round magazines for Glock pistols are available, but they shouldn't be. They make a regular pistol into a machine gun.

But the modifications to the AR18 to make it into an automatic weapon are readily available even to high school kids, along with the high capacity magazines...

The laws involved are pretty much "theoretical" for all the effect they have in the USA.

 

[highfigh]

But the modifications to the AR18 to make it into an automatic weapon are readily available even to high school kids, along with the high capacity magazines...

The laws involved are pretty much "theoretical" for all the effect they have in the USA.

So, is that a people problem?

 

[Dude#1279435]

To the person who said it's a gun culture problem. Theres normal stuff like shooting clays, hunting, and home invaders, but theyd be buying grenades and bazookas too if govt allowed it LOL. Thankfully they don't.