Can in-walls be done right...?

[Warpdrv]

Well im starting to do my homework on a 5.1 for my bedroom. and I really didn't want to clutter up with all sorts of equipment.... I have a 42" plasma in there right now, and I could wall mount it, and I was thinking of doing inwalls...

I have Paradigm Studio's .v4 in my great room, but after reading the specs on the Paradigm inwalls, I think I would be making a step down.... seems they are closer matched to the monitor line.
Room is roughly 15x15x8, Room can be sealed, but has 2 doors.
Budget for speakers would be somewhere around $2K, but isn't set.

What brands, come highly recomended..? What brands offer good sonic dispersion, and presence.

I will more then likely mate this setup with either a SVS-PB12 plus, or a DD-12. And the Pioneer Receiver that Im using for my HT as a Temp Pre/Pro.

Thanks....

 

[annunaki]

I have had excellent success with a company called Emphasys. They make some great in-walls for the money. They really impressed me in my parent's inwall setup.

Niles also does some excellent inwalls for music and Theater.

PM me for more details. I have much experience with quite a few brands.

 

[Warpdrv]

thanks annunaki, I have plenty of time to do my research and would love all the info I can get.... found some stuff about the Niles..

Those new Stagefront's look intriguing... and would love to find out more...
where can I dig up more...

Also saw some stuff about Speakercraft... wasn't sure how the quality stacks up... maybe I could get more thoughts from all here....

The Emphasys site, is seriosly a pain in the *** to run through... wow slow..

More help please...

thanks

 

[mazersteven]

Like I stated at the other place. I would take a close look at what Speakercraft has to offer. They also should be fairly easy to audition. I'm sure someone (custom installer, boutique a/v store) close to you carries the line.

www.speakercraft.com

Take a look at the AIM Cinema line.

I know nothing about these, but if I was in the in-wall market I would be researching them.

Axiom in-walls

http://www.axiomaudio.com/wallspeakers.html

RBH in-walls

www.rbhsound.com

Niles Audio in-walls

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product_d...ront&catcdID=13

 

[InTheIndustry]

No brainer....
www.bgcorp.com

BG pd-6i ($600 per pair MSRP) and the matching PD-LCRi ($500 each MSRP) for your center channel. BG makes an 8" as well, but the bass out of the 6" is unlike any in-wall I have ever, except for the BG 8" heard without going to a multiple driver solution (and even some of those can be weak) or much larger speaker.

The BG in-wall and in-ceiling products are the best I have heard in your price range. And, to be honest, if you spent any more I would still recommend staying with the BG line. I have yet to be anything but blown away. Their in-wall/ceiling speakers are amazing.

I recently did a very broad compairison of in-ceiling/wall speakers. The more I listened, the better the BG's sounded. I tried them in multiple types of wall cavities as well. They just did a great job. Absolutely better than a pair of Triad Gold/4 in-walls that retailed at $1K per pair. It wasn't even close. The treble and mid was excellent, but the bass that the PD-6i put out was unbelievable.

Other brands that these were put up against: Triad, Phase Technology, Boston, RBH, Dayton Audio, Parasound, Proficient, TruAudio, Sonance, PSB, and some others that I can't remember off the top of my head. We tried these out with movies and many many types of music. Nothing sounded better or even came close. The price points of all the speakers varied a lot as did the materials used in the different drivers. Some of the speakers were much more, some were less, and some of the brands like Triad, RBH, & PSB sent us several different models. I really wanted to test everyone from a value stand point. Some of the pairs were around $300 - $400 retail and at twice the price the BG's, to me, were so much better that I would still call them a high value.

A word to the wise.... while the BG's sound great at lower volumes they get better & better with the more power you put to them. I wouldn't recommend using a $300 receiver to power them. $550 - $800 in a Denon or Marantz would be a good value and provide ample power. Anything more would probably go unused in a room your size.

My company is dedicated towards contiuous improvement and every so often I bring in new product to make sure that we offer our customers the absolute best product and value their money can buy. I can honestly tell you that in eight years I have never been so blown away by an in-wall/ceiling product. I have heard A LOT of in-wall/ceiling speakers and the BG line is without peer in my opinion. I feel the same way about the Phase Technology dARTS system, however that's in a completely different league as far as price point goes.

Down side: depending on where you're located at, good luck finding a demo.

 

[Warpdrv]

thanks for that info intheindustry....

I have never even heard of BG, and there isn't alot of info about them, fortunately there is a wholesale dealer in my area, and my buddy has an account... so I might be able to get those at cost...
I like the pricing that I have seeen, I really didn't want to break the bank here, but as usual I want the best sound.....

Anyways, I take it you sell/install these speakers....

What recomendations do you suggest when installing in-walls... prepping the stud? do you put in that anti-vibration mat, stuff the wall with foam, or just insulation... do you add in 2x4 bracing at all...

Did I read somewhere, that they use black drivers now.. so as to not have those subs so visible...?

Also, would you not suggest the 6LCRi for the front sound stage.. and then get the 6i for surrounds... BTW, the receiver Im using, is a Pioneer Elite 81 which would probably be enough power for now, but I could always add in an amp later...

Thank again for all the suggestions here... As usual, Im in no hurry here, and like to do my homework to get it right...

Warp

 

[DBooger]

Even in a major metropolitan area (over 5 million), auditioning in-walls was effectively impossible:

RBH: no dice
B&W: limited success, listened to LCR-7, AND a speaker the sales guy said was "exactly like" the Sig 7-NT. To me, B&W was not as detailed as others. LCR-8 was out of my price range.
Speakercraft: Nope
Triad: Nope
Energy: wanted to listen to the Veritas, wound up listening to the EAS, which was detailed OK, but not deep / limited response range
Tannoy: listed to IW6 (or was it IW62?), which was my favorite from this list. Detailed, and as deep as could be expected w/o a sub.

For a casual area, I went w/ Energy RC-6W's, all 5 (plus S8.3 sub). For the "heavy lifting" I went w/ Axiom m80's. Good luck.

 

[MDS]

What recomendations do you suggest when installing in-walls... prepping the stud? do you put in that anti-vibration mat, stuff the wall with foam, or just insulation... do you add in 2x4 bracing at all...

I'm curious about those things too. As I'v recently learned, when you install in-ceiling recessed lights you need to buy 'IC' (insulation contact) cans if the cans will come into contact with the insulation so you don't risk the heat of the lights settting the insulation on fire.

Are there similar considerations for in-ceiling speakers? Is it ok for insulation to come into contact with the speakers or are you supposed to build some kind of baffle around them so the insulation doesn't touch the drivers?

 

[GoTigers]

I have Speakercraft AIM 8 inchers in my ceiling, and I love them. They do a very good job in my very large living room (4300 cu ft). Never did any comparisons, though. I appreciate the insights offered above, also.

 

[davidtwotrees]

So, I would like to know if inwalls can compete with or be better than the same pricepoint in normal speakers, ie two towers, a center, a sub, and surrounds?
(i like the look of the speakers and wouldn't want to hide them....)

 

[Warpdrv]

I can even answer that one for ya... NO !!!
Good quality speakers are usually well planned out with the cabinet engineering in mind. Taking the face off a speaker and placing it in the wall will drastically effect the performace of said speakers....
Proper driver effectiveness will be coupled with the volume of an internal cabinet space.
I am seriously compromising my position here, I want good sound, but I don't want to take up the space in my bedroom with speakers.... Plus while Im laying in bed, It would be difficult to have the soundfield directed to the height of laying in bed..

I have a 42" Plasma, which I will be mounting on the wall, high enough that I can put the speakers at a level that will work properly.

I can only hope to get the best quality speakers to perform in this lose-lose situation....

 

[annunaki]

If one will have acess to the wall cavity that the speaker will go into, putting a couple lateral braces in would not hurt at all. What you will want to do is make sure the braces contact the main baffle that the speaker is connected to. If the rear of the wall (cavity) is also drywall you will want a brace to make contact with that as well. You will not want the bracing to limit the available airspace or effectively lower the enclosure voulme. I would suggest some treatment using a poly fill or fiberglass insulation.

Some speakers require less air that the wall cavity supplies and have dedicated "back boxes" supplying the proper volume. Some speakers also have a glorified "back box" made of closed cell foam.

Atlantic Technology takes this a step further and actually has treated in wall enlcosures for some of their higher end inwalls. They offer a THX certified inwall system.

I can find out additional info on any of the Niles, Emphasys or Atlantic Technology products for you. PM me your questions.

The Emphasys website is not the easiest on slow connection speeds.

 

[Warpdrv]

I always have an extremely high speed internet, and I'll tell ya, that site just plain sucks... It looks cool and all, but transition between products is a PIA.. I found it faster to just download the broshure....

Thanks for your ideas...
Do you ever use that acoustic/vibration dampening rubber material in the walls...
I can't imagine that would be a bad idea... as well as using the insulation...

How about Great Stuff... Im just thinking off the top of my head here... maybe this stuff sounds stupid... just say so if it does...

Warp

 

[annunaki]

It would depend upon the usage. How would you be using it? To form a cavity?

 

[Warpdrv]

I would think it would be just to firm up the cavity above and below where the speakers are going to be to reduce resonances.

And that Dynamat, that they use in cars for dampening...
http://www.tweeter.com/sm-dynamat-sound-damping--fi-1327956.html
I would think it would work quite well, if the tolerances allow for 1/8th inch behind the speaker.
Do they usually make them to mount right up to the drywall behind the speaker or is there a tiny bit of room...

thanks

 

[Lady Phoenix]

I can even answer that one for ya... NO !!!
Good quality speakers are usually well planned out with the cabinet engineering in mind. Taking the face off a speaker and placing it in the wall will drastically effect the performace of said speakers....

Just curious as to whether y'all feel that this would also be true of on-wall speakers...

 

[Warpdrv]

from everything I have read and auditioned n my research of both solutions, On walls provided less qualtiy then the inwalls...

I have seen & heard some nice looking on wall products, like Paradigm, or B&W's being basically the same, but neither wow'd me at all... seemed to have some shortcomings in my book... Going from large speakers, I really didn't feel they had the punch or presence that I heard from in-walls... They just sounded like large computer speakers if you know what I mean...

I still haven't gotten the time to go out and audition more In-walls... but I will

 

[annunaki]

I would think it would be just to firm up the cavity above and below where the speakers are going to be to reduce resonances.

And that Dynamat, that they use in cars for dampening...
http://www.tweeter.com/sm-dynamat-sound-damping--fi-1327956.html
I would think it would work quite well, if the tolerances allow for 1/8th inch behind the speaker.
Do they usually make them to mount right up to the drywall behind the speaker or is there a tiny bit of room...

thanks

I do not think that dynamat would hurt. However there are other lower cost alternatives at local hardware stores that do the same thing.


As long as the great stuff did not fill the entire cavity at one point, it may help to some degree. To be honest, if you are that worried about the wall treatment, I would suggest using speakers with a "back box" or inwall enclosure. Atlantic Technology has some of the best in-wall enclosures I have seen. Most companies simply use a metal box that gets mounted in the wall prior to finishing. If the walls are already up, this becomes a bit more difficult.

 

[Warpdrv]

Yeah the walls are finished, so I was just thinking of ideas that would help.
Not trying to go retarded, just have all the time in the world to do it right.

I won't have someone looking over my shoulder saying, when is this going to be done... I figured that filling the cavity above and below the speaker area with insulation will keep the sound from bouncing around there, and the dynamat would help to tie the drywall behind the speakers to the studs, so there will be no chance of vibration.

Maybe the great stuff is a stretch, but the dynamat would keep everything together back there.... as its sticky and would just bind right to all the surfaces, as well as being dense to firm it up quite well...

 

[annunaki]

I think you would be better off with great stuff, unless you are using a spray on sound dampening material. The dynamat will not stick well to a dusty paper surface of drywall. I would suggest some poly fill stuffed above and below the speaker as well as just behind it. Honestly, unless the house was poorly put together it should be fine. I would just run the great stuff it the corners where the drywall meets the stud. You could also put a thin sheet of acoustical foam behind the speaker to help aid in resonance control. Also check ot Deflex pads from Cascade Audio.