Can I go any higher with my sound -

[BobSD]

I have a 5.1 with the almost top Definitive speakers, 7001s, 2500C the back not sure of the def model but paid $500 for the pair and a Def Sub-woofer. I have a Integra 7.8, and it really sounds great! With that said, we are always looking for improvement. I have a sony record/player CD $350, and a Yamaha CD Player $265. only giving the price not sure of the model numbers. But looking through "The Absolute Sound" mag., I looked at acouple of CD players claiming "new technolgies are now showing that there is much more information on CDs then previously imagined". Now I am thinking your basic CDs, not special formated one not yet available. So I see this model, Meridian reference 808.2 Cd player, cannot find a price for that one yet, and theAzur840C Cd player. $1,599. Any opinions if these high priced CD players can actually bring out higher sound quality, brightness clarity, make your tweeters and mids earn there money??

 

[Haoleb]

Basically what it boils down to is how much are you willing to pay for how much more performance. I am certainly not in the camp of "All cd and dvd players sound the same" but from my experiences your only going to get so much out of a high end digital source. For myself I went from a 300 dollar cd player which I picked up on clearance to a 1,000 dollar cd player which I picked up used. Night and day difference? No chance. Although The more expensive player has a smoother more natural sound but if I had spent 1,000 dollars to get that It would have been a major dissapointment. If your willing to spend 1k+ for an upgrade I would personally reccomend speakers or room treatments.

 

[Nomo]

I'm not sure how much more information can be on a CD that the rest of the player haven't discovered.
Unless maybe you can find a way to play it backwards and hear that "John is Dead".

Save your money. While I suspect that a huge investment in a high end player will yield marginal improvements, I'd challenge any one to actually hear the difference.

 

[markw]

You can always spend a lot more and (hopefully) get tiny improvements but I'd say you're on the point of diminishing returns curve to where it's almost a horizontal line.

As for what you read in this hobby, well, maybe this will interest you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery

 

[BobSD]

Wow! Three no's from the maestros. My wife will be very happy to hear that! Thanks!

 

[fmw]

Bob I'll put it as objectively as I can. It is possible for a CD player to affect sonics. However, the amount of incompetence in design work required makes it very rare just by definition since digital audio is now a mature and perfected technology. Over the past 10 years I've done bias controlled listening tests on about 30 difference CD playing devices - 16 bit, 24 bit, 1 bit, integrated, separates, portable, cheap, incredibly expensive etc and the only time we ever had a statistically significant audible difference from the reference was with two players made in the 1980's near the beginnings of CD technology itself.

Obviously we haven't tested them all. There could be one out there that sounds objectively better or worse than the others but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to show up based on the results we've had so far. Those are the facts, not my opinions.

 

[Midcow2]

Nice Def Tech speakers

You have nice speakers so that is not your problem. Speaker upgrade would probably do little.

Nice AVR so upgrade or change there would not help.

Have you gone back and fine tuned and calibrated your speaker levels and position ?

Also what items are in the room that could cuase/hinfder reflection. Maybe a look at the layout of the room and possible acoustic tratments is you best next step.

Do you have 5.1 discrete input coming into your AVR? TIf not this might separate and enhance the individual sound.



Good luck!

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Unless maybe you can find a way to play it backwards and hear that "John is Dead"..

But it would have to be clearly heard, not speculated or imagined

 

[mtrycrafts]

...Over the past 10 years I've done bias controlled listening tests on about 30 difference CD playing devices - 16 bit, 24 bit, 1 bit, integrated, separates, portable, cheap, incredibly expensive etc and the only time we ever had a statistically significant audible difference from the reference was with two players made in the 1980's near the beginnings of CD technology itself.
.

And, the one that I read about, a 14 bit player, was not functioning correctly to boot. Its 10th digit processing was broken.

 

[Pyrrho]

I have a 5.1 with the almost top Definitive speakers, 7001s, 2500C the back not sure of the def model but paid $500 for the pair and a Def Sub-woofer. I have a Integra 7.8, and it really sounds great! With that said, we are always looking for improvement. I have a sony record/player CD $350, and a Yamaha CD Player $265. only giving the price not sure of the model numbers. But looking through "The Absolute Sound" mag., I looked at acouple of CD players claiming "new technolgies are now showing that there is much more information on CDs then previously imagined". Now I am thinking your basic CDs, not special formated one not yet available. So I see this model, Meridian reference 808.2 Cd player, cannot find a price for that one yet, and theAzur840C Cd player. $1,599. Any opinions if these high priced CD players can actually bring out higher sound quality, brightness clarity, make your tweeters and mids earn there money??

Basically, if you want an audible difference (i.e., one that you could actually hear with a properly conducted, level matched, double blind test), you are most likely to get a difference from changing speakers, or changing their position in your room, or by altering the room acoustics. Almost everything else, unless malfunctioning or put to improper use (e.g., hooking up 2 ohm speakers to an amplifier designed for nothing less than 8 ohm speakers, etc.), will make little or no difference at all.

In fact, I remember reading an article a few years back in which a double blind test was done with a cheap RCA CD player (somewhere around $100 MSR) and something costing over $1000. Guess what? NO ONE could hear a difference between them. Someone else here, I am sure, will be able to give you a reference for this if you ask nicely (or you can search this site for it).

If you need greater clarity, buy better speakers, or get rid of the echo in your room.

 

[Soundman]

SACD or DVD-A

Why not get a player that can playback SACD's and DVD-A's? I assume you were referring to regular CD players. I think by going to the higher resolution format and using muti-cahnnel recordings, will be money better spent then on the nicest CD player, IMO.

 

[BobSD]

Great responses! I think I am looking for a quick easy fix just plug it in and wow, what an improvement. I am old school, this system replaced my Sansui amp, and SP5500s, and 3500s Sansui speakers. They were 16inch bass and 14inch bass with bit horns and tweeters. But to really get a good sound you had to push the volume, and the accoustics were incredibly important.
With todays systems it is hard for me to express myself with all the new terms. But Midcow2, hit on some intersting areas to look into. I am afraid of discrete, cause I do not know much about it , but thinking it may be more for DVD programs? I find the definitives much easier then the sansui were to setup for accoustical environment. But the real home run Midcow hit on was have you really find tuned your reciever/speakers! No I have not, The part I would really like to explore is the Equalizer settings, and I am just darn scared of it. It starts from 25HZ, 40HZ, up to 400HZ, and then 63HZ to 16000HZ. Where woud I begin, I am trying to get more dings and pings out of my tweeter and mids, my bass sounds teriffic. With my computer it has a equalizer and you just select jazz, rock, etc and all the bars move and the sound is so much improved, so how do I figure out where to begin moving all those HZs. I think I am asking too much for free will have to take you all out to the fFre Side Inn for thick Steak dinners, and a few drinks!!Bob

 

[AVRat]

Before you start playing around with equalization, you need to figure out where the problem lies. A Radio Shack SPL meter and Rives Audio Test CD will help to graph your room’s response characteristics and what frequencies need adjusting. http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html

 

[BobSD]

Thanks AVRAt, Just seen your message, on my way to radio shack Sunday. Hope they have those items. I wonder if Best Buy would, will check there if I have to.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a 5.1 with the almost top Definitive speakers, 7001s, 2500C the back not sure of the def model but paid $500 for the pair and a Def Sub-woofer. I have a Integra 7.8, and it really sounds great! With that said, we are always looking for improvement.

Since your system already sounds great, I don't see how you can improve on it. Messing around can actually make it worse.

So it will be interesting to see how your system actually sounds after you do all that tweaking.

I'm in the camp that does not believe in messing with Equalizers & Tone Controls. Slight use of DSPs (PLIIx) might spice things up and make them more personally satisfying, but playing with equalizers and tone controls is pretty serious business.

One other approach to Improving on your sound is to actually cut BACK on the "improvements".

What I mean is using things like Source Direct & Pure Direct modes on your preamp/amp, which completely bypass all the tones, EQs, & bass management. This allows for a more unaltered sound signal. The idea is to achieve as close to the original sound as possible, not alter it.

I'm sure you've read professional reviews of receivers and pre-pros (Audioholics, Sound & Vision, Home Theater, etc.). I'm sure you've read the part where the reviewers talk about Audessey and other types of Automated EQs. And then after doing all that fancy EQs, the reviewers end up BYPASSING all that EQs? It's like 100% of the time.

I've tried the fancy automated EQs too. They are suppose to fix the room's acoustics? Well, they suck. They don't work. EQs don't sound right.

I remember another AH member trying out his fancy Velodyne EQs. Graphically, it looked great. The F.R. was pretty flat and even. Almost textbook perfect. Should have sounded great right? Well, it sounded terrible!

Just wanted to give another point of view.

 

[BobSD]

That is a very intesting point of view that warrants serious consideration! Although I do not have the audio knowlege most have here, ( thats why I come here), I do feel I have some common sense, I had this gut feeling not to mess with equalizer options. Bottom line I feel I peaked with my setup, and if I want to go higher,( learned on this forum) move to a higher level speakers. Thinking about it. All the great iput has kept me on the straight and narrow path and saves me money too!! Thanks very much!

 

[WmAx]

BobSD, you are correct: the speakers you have are limiting you. If you went the EQ route - it would not solve much - the speakers probably have too many flaws. Now, EQ does have it's place - ironically - the most effective use of EQ is on the most non-flawed speakers - because then the speaker is a neutral blank slate and the EQ is used to only induce colorations you desire - not try to correct inherent colorations of the speaker. These two things are distinctly different.

I can help you pick out a system using available commercial speakers of the lowest possible cost, combined with other hardware, that can yield massive improvements to your sound quality, if you so desire this help. Before requesting advice from me, please do a search on my user name to establish my general knowledge level of speaker design and the related perceptual research therein.

-Chris

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is a very intesting point of view that warrants serious consideration! Although I do not have the audio knowlege most have here, ( thats why I come here), I do feel I have some common sense, I had this gut feeling not to mess with equalizer options. Bottom line I feel I peaked with my setup, and if I want to go higher,( learned on this forum) move to a higher level speakers. Thinking about it. All the great iput has kept me on the straight and narrow path and saves me money too!! Thanks very much!

I think all of us completely understand that "upgraditis" itch. There is no cure for it, no drugs to treat it.

Most of the time, we usually go sideways in the "upgrades" for other reasons like convenience, features, and aesthetics.

I've listened to my BP7001SCs as main front speakers just to see how they compared to the BP7000SCs. The main difference is the low frequency bass output -- not much of a difference. You can check out other speakers. But even when you spend $10,000/pr instead of $3,800/pr (BP7001SC), you won't get a dramatic difference. Sure there will be a difference, but it won't be like night-and-day.

How are you placing those BP7001SCs?

I think the ideal placement for them is 3 ft from the back and 4 ft from the sides.

So for me, an upgrade would be to buy a new house with a dedicated 25 ft x 35 ft x 15 ft HT room with 4 bass traps for each of the corners just in case.

 

[BobSD]

DefTechGuy, that was funny, that made my day, wait until my wife hears we are going to look for a new house, I think the dogs will be peed off because they like the huge yard they now have.
I spoke to my local guru, he works at the sound pro where I bought my Definitives. He said if I really want to step up they now carry the Paradigm speakers and quoted a price aproaching 18K, the sub goes for $3,800. I ask him to wrote down the model numbers so I can see what my gurus here think. The highest they had at ther time was ther Defs. Now this is big bucks in my world, And I do not feel I would consider this if it were not for a forum like this because you here have nothing to gain $$$$, so your opinions are absolutely gold quality.
My whole life now is boating in the summer, and listening to my music year round for my only enjoyment. So I am not worried about putting some heavy bucks into great speakers. Just making a right decision is what has me holding off. This town is not like NYC, or LA, so I cannot really compare top line speakers here, I was shocked when they said the had the Definitives, and do not get me wrong, I love my Defs, but......? Bob

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

DefTechGuy, that was funny, that made my day, wait until my wife hears we are going to look for a new house, I think the dogs will be peed off because they like the huge yard they now have.
I spoke to my local guru, he works at the sound pro where I bought my Definitives. He said if I really want to step up they now carry the Paradigm speakers and quoted a price aproaching 18K, the sub goes for $3,800. I ask him to wrote down the model numbers so I can see what my gurus here think. The highest they had at ther time was ther Defs. Now this is big bucks in my world, And I do not feel I would consider this if it were not for a forum like this because you here have nothing to gain $$$$, so your opinions are absolutely gold quality.
My whole life now is boating in the summer, and listening to my music year round for my only enjoyment. So I am not worried about putting some heavy bucks into great speakers. Just making a right decision is what has me holding off. This town is not like NYC, or LA, so I cannot really compare top line speakers here, I was shocked when they said the had the Definitives, and do not get me wrong, I love my Defs, but......? Bob

The Paradigm Signature Series are more expensive than the DefTechs flagship. Another member here has audition the Def BP7000SC, B&W 803D (?), & Revel (?). He preferred the Paradigm Signature over all of them. Of course, everyone is different.

I think the problem with comparing speakers in stores is that most of them will be hooked up with different amps/preamps/receivers/pre-pros and different room acoustics/speaker placement. So they are not exactly the same conditions. Now if you could convince someone to let to audition the speakers (just the front Left + Right) for free in your own home, that would be awesome.