Can anyone give me an honest opinion on Axiom Loudspeakers?

[brkbeatsci]

Hey guys,

I've been reading these boards for a while and, thanks to many good leads found here, have to decided to at least audition the M80s in the next few weeks. The question that I have though, is how likely do owners of these speakers think it would be to need to add a sub to this system. These speakers will be for a strictly music only system. My tastes vary with the tides, moving from james taylor and seventies rock to dean martin, to snoop dogg, to modern indie rock, to house and electro. For the immediate future, they would be in a living room about 400 square feet, and in the not so distant future would probably (not definite, yet) find their home in a 2800 square foot loft.

I actually started looking at the cerwin vega CLS-12s, because hey, I'm 28 and I'm a fan of rattling teeth sometimes, but in the same breath, I'm 28 and am starting to tone down more and more. Also, I'm leaning more towards the Axioms because I'm getting to the point in my life where I just want to buy quality stuff once, not crap a bunch of times ( I know someone out there can relate to that). Anyhow, the original question stands...what is the probability for needing a sub with this system and if it's very probable, any recommendations on that front? I've always been partial to 12s and 15s but more so to 12s. I think you get a bit of the best of both a 10 and a 15 from them. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to anticipate any potential qualifying questions

P.S. I know sound is a very individualistic thing, so I'm just asking "your" opinion/s.

Thanks

 

[Haoleb]

I dont think there is any system that wouldnt benefit from having good sub(s) I listened to the M80's on their own for years and didnt feel like i was missing alot. When i finally did get subs its a pretty significant difference, And i would never go back. But for what they are, alone, the M80 have pretty satisfying bass response.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Just a note that at high volumes I probably wouldn't recommend a 4-ohm load on even a Denon over a long period of time. Axiom sells a amplifier that would power their speakers well, but I've never seen/used it.

A lot of home audio manufacturers roll off their tops because they are designed for smaller listening spaces. As far as bright, perhaps because of the large size of the M80s they have a little flatter top end because they are designed for use in a large listening space. Regardless this can be taken care of with a bit of EQ from any modern receiver or preamplifier.

I'm not pressuring you either way (I'm not really partial to Axiom), just, wanted to give that perspective for your to munch on.

I would look at some satelite-subwoofer setups. Danley Sound Labs (SH-Mini's with a CS-30), Bag End (M6s with a Infra-12), Dynaudio (Excites work well with receivers/are an easy load, Dynaudios subs are fantastic but expensive)... Tannoy also.

 

[fredk]

The M80 has very capable bass. Most of the music you list probably does not have anything in it below the M80s -3db point.

I have switched back and forth between sub and no sub on a number of songs and noticed no difference. For some stuff like my ELP disc, which has some low synth and pipe organ, there is a noticable improvement with a sub.

As a reference, the lowest note on an electric bass is around 41Hz. At the extreme, synth and the pipe organ can go below 20Hz.

As far as the 4 ohm load and Denons, there is no issue, period. Dennon puts a very capable power section in all their receivers.

 

[brkbeatsci]

The M80 has very capable bass. Most of the music you list probably does not have anything in it below the M80s -3db point.

Thanks Fred, but can you elaborate on this point? I'm not really sure what you mean.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Thanks Fred, but can you elaborate on this point? I'm not really sure what you mean.

He means that the bass of those speakers goes low enough where you won't require a subwoofer.

 

[agarwalro]

For the price of the M80's you can put together a 2.1 setup that will be better suited to your needs (dorm = small listening space; movies, games = must have sub).

I have the M60s and can say that Axiom lives up to its reputation. Although, I read somewhere that for the price of the M80's you can find better floorstanding speakers.

Here is an M80 reivew. This site also advocates $7500/ 10ft-pair speaker cables with the caveat "Does that mean the cables are really fancy? Yup. Expensive? Yup. Will the fancy, expensive cable critics laugh? Probably. They always do.".

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/axiom-m80ti-speakers-9-2002.html

 

[MidnightSensi]

For the price of the M80's you can put together a 2.1 setup that will be better suited to your needs (dorm = small listening space; movies, games = must have sub).

I highly agree.

 

[fredk]

(dorm = small listening space; movies, games = must have sub).

The OP stated music only, so unless it involves a lot of music with deep pipe organ and/or synth tracks, a sub is not essential. A speaker that reaches down to at least 40Hz is.

You could put together a bookshelf + sub that would have a similar sound to a capable floorstander, but reach lower for the same price though.

 

[fredk]

I have the M60s and can say that Axiom lives up to its reputation. Although, I read somewhere that for the price of the M80's you can find better floorstanding speakers.

I have read many things about many speakers and it is hard, at times, to know what it true.

I have also done a direct switched a/b comparison of the M60 and M80. I walked in to the audition convinced that the M60 would be plenty for me, but left convinced that the M80 delivered at least $300 more in sound quality over the M60. AND, I'm a cheap a$$ bugger!

I also did the same comparison between a bookself + sub (Axiom M22) and the M80 and found that for tracks with lots of deep bass (ELP debut album) the bottom end really opened up with a sub. Conversely, the top end really opened up with the M80s. Since I was planning on a sub anyway and had the budget, I chose the best of both.

You can find other bookshelves more capable, but that will probably come at a price.

 

[fredk]

Thanks Fred, but can you elaborate on this point? I'm not really sure what you mean.

Midnightsensi gave you the short answer, I'll attempt the long one.

Speakers are measured for performance in an anechoic chamber which produces no reflections. That way you are measuring just the speaker and not the speaker plus room effects.

A sweep is done from very low (say 20Hz) to very high (20KHz+) frequencies at a given volume (measured in db). The perfect speaker would have +-0 db in variation across its entire frequency range. Of course, speakers are not perfect, so +- 3db has become a way to define a speakers performance.

-3db was chosen (I think) because that is the point that everybody can hear a noticable difference in volume. Below that point you lose significant volume and thus music produced below that frequency.

Relate that back to the instruments used in the music you listen to. If its a 3 piece rock band, you won't get any music below 41Hz. If its a full symphony, instruments like the double bass, bassoon (sp?) pipe organ, cannon ... will reach below 41Hz.

I hope that all made sense.

 

[brkbeatsci]

well, poop. Asked a question and now I'm back on the fence. Fredk, you mentioned that I might put together a sub/sat system that would give similar sound and reach lower. Would you have any manufacturers that you think I should check out? Also, thanks for your repeated responses to my queries.

 

[agarwalro]

well, poop. Asked a question and now I'm back on the fence. Fredk, you mentioned that I might put together a sub/sat system that would give similar sound and reach lower. Would you have any manufacturers that you think I should check out? Also, thanks for your repeated responses to my queries.

Internte Direct gives best bang for buck - Aperion, Axiom, Emotiva, Hsu, Outlaw, SVS sould get you started.

Good subs can easily integrate with good bookshelfs and vice versa. So they do not have to be of the same brand.

 

[fredk]

brkbeatsci. My experience is based on Axiom. I had the good fortune to live close enough to drive up to the factory and audition across their line. I compared the M80, M60 and M22+ sub.

I ended up with the M80, but found that it was very close between the M60 (also a very capable speaker) and the M22+ sub. The latter two were almost identical and this was in a situation where I could switch back and forth quickly between two speaker configurations on an avr.

I guess it depends partly on your budget.

I expect something like the Paradigm Studio 40 would also do very well with a sub.

 

[the grunt]

My tastes vary with the tides, moving from james taylor and seventies rock to dean martin, to snoop dogg, to modern indie rock, to house and electro. For the immediate future, they would be in a living room about 400 square feet, and in the not so distant future would probably (not definite, yet) find their home in a 2800 square foot loft.

I would also recommend a sub/sat system but you might want to have an upgrade path in mind because 2800 sq/ft is huge. Some people find that bookshelf speakers start sounding a little anemic in larger rooms even when paired with subwoofers. I think that Axiom offers an upgrade program in case you wanted to trade up from the M22s. I’m not sure if any other ID brands have upgrade programs but some local dealers do it. Just something you might want to think about.

The most similar things I listen to compared to you are 70s rock and electropop. I’ve done a lot of comparing of my M80s and M22 w/sub and don’t notice a big difference with most music. However, I think the sub/sat combo is almost always a better buy. You can usually get more for your money. It’s usually easier to place the sub and bookshelf speakers for optimal performance. If you ever plan to do HT the sub is a must.

Agarwalro already gave some great recommendations. The best thing I can add is to go out and start listening to more speakers especially bookshelf speakers if that’s the way you are leaning. If you find something you like see if they will let you demo them in your home.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[brkbeatsci]

Sorry I've been mute for a while, I've been up til 1:30AM every night scouring the internet for reviews on four speakers that I think are making my own personal 'Final Four'. I know, I know, specs do not a speaker make, but with ID companies, that and reviews are really all I have to go on pre-purchase/demo. Drum Roll please...

Here they are: (and not in any particular order)

Paradigm Monitor 11 ($1300 - Liked what I heard, but didn't get to do full audition on my lunch break. I really liked their imaging and soundstage, but I thought midrange was a little too unforgiving on some recordings)

Rocket 850 ($ 659-ish a pair plus a good chunk for shipping. You really can't f-ck with the open box prices from AV123 right now, though I'm a little (maybe a little more than 'a little') weary of all the negative chatter on the forums about sketchy business practices. This leaves some change for a big 'ole svs PC13 in a few weeks. Oh, and no 30 day trial on open box stuff, which means to me that I'm stuck with them if I don't like them)

Swan 6.2 ($1200ish shipped. I'm not really sure what the difference is between the .1 and .2 besides aesthetics and lower extension on the .2, but the .2s are GORGEOUS. The .1s are really pretty too, and a bit cheaper through ozht's website.)

Axiom M80v2 ($1300ish shipped. What can I say that hasn't been said on here about these before. Awesome sensitivity, great power handling (I've been known to beat on speakers from time to time)

All these speakers have gotten favorable reviews around the web (and I suppose in publications of note). I guess my question is, with a temporary budget (meaning the one/s I don't like will be returned and money refunded) of $3000, how would you compare these speakers? Which two would you put heads up?

If anyone is wondering/interested, they are/ will be being pushed by a audiosource preamp through a numark dimension four amplifier. This gear might be crap, it might be decent, but what it ABSOLUTELY is is what I've got, though I do have a SAE A202 around that I haven't used in a while. Eventually, I'd like to upgrade that stuff (really liked some of the krell and emotiva stuff, but not budgeting for that at the moment, though maybe an emotiva setup could replace the svs in future purchases). Mostly the source stuff is an ipod, or satellite radio. Not much for CDs anymore.

I've been hoping craigsub would do that comparison of the rockets and swans. If he has and my internet stalking just hasn't led me to it, could someone post the link.

So, how would you seasoned veterans proceed?

Oh, and sorry this was so long.

 

[fredk]

Try to listen to as many of them as you can.

Give the monitor 11s a good workout with material you are familiar with when you have more time and are not rushed.

With the Axioms, go to their website and see if you can find a local audition. Try posting in the Hearing things forum.

The Rockets? Proceed with caution. If you buy, buy with the expectation that you will not be able to return them. This is not a stable company at this point.

Other than that, its hard to say.

 

[brkbeatsci]

Fredk, I've seen some people sort of near me that have some axiom stuff, but no one has the m80s. Most of them have the m60s, what kind of differences can I expect between the 60s and the 80s?

 

[Bugbitten]

Despite the problems argued on the net, the AV123 850 is a great speaker. AV123 seems to starting to deliver promised product again. See the Teak City Audio site. Current sale: $899 per pair – and delivered to the Yellow Terminal of YOUR CHOICE for $149. - Through 4/22 I think.

I had the 60s and upgraded to the 80s. The 80s are more detailed and deliver more sound. I have M80s (in storage) and have heard the 850s on many occasions. The 850s deliver an awesome punch and are very detailed. The 850s are beautiful. The rosewood is very nice. The M80 are vinyl in their standard finish. From a short distance they appear to be real wood.

Send Craigsub a PM. He will respond to your questions. A very nice fellow.

Currently Open Baffle x-statiks in use for my HT.

Get out there and audition!

 

[Bugbitten]

That was Tweak City Audio!

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1105