• Thread starter Vaughan Odendaa
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Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
BoredSysAdmin said:
I understand you, but the problem is you have two choices:
A) Take what educated and experienced electrical engineers are saying which is science confirmed and peer reviewed as truth and move on or

B) To get and answer to the hard question "WHY" - you would need as suggested to acquire additional education on topics like basics like physics - there are no shortcuts. It took me two years just to scratch the surface of electricity and magnetism and i'm not even engineer
I'm not disagreeing with Gene or what any of the experts here have said. I'm just having trouble understanding what they are saying. Perhaps the answer is not intuitive and that is the problem right there - I really want to cut past the math and get straight to an answer.

I'll have to dig deeper and try and figure this out on my own, somehow.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I'm not disagreeing with Gene or what any of the experts here have said. I'm just having trouble understanding what they are saying. Perhaps the answer is not intuitive and that is the problem right there - I really want to cut past the math and get straight to an answer.

I'll have to dig deeper and try and figure this out on my own, somehow.
low resistance is the dominant important factor in loudspeaker cables but audibility between different cables, even if measured, isn't guaranteed. Only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguishable (ie. comparing 10AWG to 28 AWG cables, mostly due to resistive losses, or deliberately making a cable have ultra high capacitance causing a poorly designed amplifier to oscillate or frequency peak at high F). Hope that helps.
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Come on now, the article itself isn't poorly written, but it is two lines which set the entire article up as marketing for overpriced cables:

10 foot run of a typical cheap 24 gauge "speaker cable"
and
10 foot run of one quality high end 10AWG gauge cable
24 gauge cable is equivalent to one wire inside an ethernet cable. ONE! I think my cheap home theater in a box came with that, but you can't easily go buy 24 gauge speaker cable. You have to hunt for something that low of quality.

So there is no 'typical cheap 24 gauge speaker wire' in existence. It just isn't out there as a 'typical' product.

I use Monoprice as a standard of what 'typical cheap' should mean to anyone. It should be the freakin' white paper of what 'typical cheap' means. That, or Parts Express. But, let's look at what Monoprice has to offer for typical cheap:

HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more!

There you go, their cheapest cable is 50' of wire. It is 18 gauge and it runs $6.29. That works out to about a buck twenty-six for ten feet. Doesn't get much cheaper than that.

So, what is the measured resistance across that 10 foot run and how does that impact damping?

Oh, and let's go ahead and jump to 'cheap high-end' (does that even exist?) - 50' of Monoprice 12 gauge cable is $16.42. That's about $3.50 for ten feet. Nearly three times the price of the 18 gauge cable. About a hundredth the price of what the article likely would call 'high end' cable.

But, how does it measure up?

That's when you get into the math, and for that, you just need to look at the charts that are on this site to compare real world expectation of normal (no price with normal) wire.

-Same link as already posted-
Speaker Cable Gauge (AWG) Guidelines & Recommendations — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Now, it is very 'mathy' to get those numbers, but it comes from a formula and nothing more. The down side to this is that the article doesn't measure any specific cables, it just uses generic 'cheap' and 'high end'. To see how well Monoprice (or BJC or their pricey junk) actually measures out, you would need that cable, you would need to measure the resistance on that cable, and then plug the numbers into the formula. It will give you an exact result of what damping factor that specific cable will have on the audio.

The one question I have is that they add the damping factor of the cable and the receiver together to get their result. I would think this is accurate. I would also think that the connections in use would have some impact. So, direct wire vs. banana plugs vs. locking connectors, etc.

But, because they are not metioned, at all, I would also believe that these items have almost zero impact on things. In fact, the only thing metioned that does have an impact is the use of a non-standard audio wire which is so far outside the normal, it is ridiculous.

At 10', with normally built wire, regardless of price, on any 8ohm system, you will audibly be unable to detect any difference between 18 gauge speaker wire and 10 gauge speaker wire. You may be able to pull out extremely sensitive equipment and detect a change, but you can't audibly hear a change.

They always leave that part out as well... If you can't hear it, then it doesn't matter.

Thanks Audioholics for the heavy lifting on the math section! Would be cool to see a chart comparing actual cables against each other. Say Monoprice vs. BJC vs. 'high end'. Or a link to someone who has those numbers.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I only can wish for some reasonable number behind whole hdmi cable.
Like 720p video with DTS needs (for example, I didn't check the number) 1.2Gbit bandwidth
Say, 100ft "cheap" cable is rated for 1.5Gbit - you know - you are in safe zone

Or you need to run upto 3D 1080p (and deep color (why not)) with lossless ma hd dts - with will require say 10Gbit - obviously you're going to have a problem.

I don't see how hdmi are so drastically rated differently than computer world high-speed interconnects

New HDMI Category I and II are attempt in the right direction, albeit WAY oversimplified
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Guys,

Take a look at this :

Why Speaker Cables Are More Than You Think They Are - Audiophile Review

What do you think? I don't agree with the damping factor argument the author is using. What are your thoughts?
That article is nonsense unless you are using active crossovers.

The internal resistance of the components of ANY passive crossover just blows any possibility of the negative feedback circuit of any amplifier damping the speaker.

However this is a cogent argument is favor of active speakers, especially if the amps and crossovers are in the speaker. This does firm up bass if engineered correctly, no doubt about it.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I only can wish for some reasonable number behind whole hdmi cable.
Like 720p video with DTS needs (for example, I didn't check the number) 1.2Gbit bandwidth
Say, 100ft "cheap" cable is rated for 1.5Gbit - you know - you are in safe zone

Or you need to run upto 3D 1080p (and deep color (why not)) with lossless ma hd dts - with will require say 10Gbit - obviously you're going to have a problem.

I don't see how hdmi are so drastically rated differently than computer world high-speed interconnects

New HDMI Category I and II are attempt in the right direction, albeit WAY oversimplified
HDMI cables aren't really that simple. The problem with HDMI is that the connection structure of the cable and the various manufacturing facilities makes it so that the cable itself can vary wildly in quality from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Now, short cables barely matter. Say, under 12'. You get high speed rated and standard speed rated. It isn't overly simplified... Get high speed rated cables! They support 3D and and HD audio and have some room for growth.

Now, at longer distances, is where HDMI becomes extremely tricky. This isn't analog audio. You don't get some noise in the line and just live with it at longer cable lengths. With HDMI you get cliff effect. A complete drop of the image at longer cable lengths. This issue is not easily resolved if you already have a cable you've put in your wall, though there are some very good reclocking devices out there which can restore a low-level digital signal.

The better solution, IMO, for longer HDMI runs is HD-Base-T solutions using shielded CAT-6a cabling (if possible) or even simple CAT-5 cabling. They can support up to 330 feet of distance and as long as the CAT cabling is in place, then if something goes wrong with one of the adapters, you can get a different adapter and put it in place instead. It's more expensive, but I typically will pull a 50' length of Monoprices heaviest gauge HDMI cable (22AWG I believe) to a projector, and also pull 3 pieces of CAT cabling to it. I've never had an issue with the HDMI cable yet, but the cheap CAT cabling just being there is peace of mind.

The big thing with HDMI is that without very expensive testing gear, you can't see how much signal loss is occurring over any cable that you own. So, you have to trust that you are buying a quality cable. But, thicker gauges tend to offer more peace of mind and can allow for higher signal integrity.

All that said - HDMI has other factors such as EDID and HDCP which can electronically block the image from getting to your display. Those have nothing to do with the cable.
 
V

Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
Gene, just a question. The author said "The resistance of the cable must be added to the output impedance of the amplifier".

But is that true? And if so why? Some other experts say that that the total resistance in the cable should not exceed 5% of the nominal resistance of the speaker. Why is that?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Gene, just a question. The author said "The resistance of the cable must be added to the output impedance of the amplifier".

But is that true? And if so why? Some other experts say that that the total resistance in the cable should not exceed 5% of the nominal resistance of the speaker. Why is that?
You are confusing two issues. One is the resistance for adequate power distribution from amp to speaker. Here your 5% rule is appropriate.

The other issue is amplifier damping of the woofer, in this case the resistance of the cable must be added to the source resistance of the amplifier, but so must the resistance of chokes in the crossover in series with the woofer.

When you add that bill up, the damping factor becomes nil and a non issue.

However a driver directly connected to an amp with low source impedance can have significant damping. In fact you can feel it, if you try to move the cone, there is a resisting force from the amp, at least if the amp is a solid state amp with negative feedback and low source resistance. However in a speaker with a passive crossover there is no such effect.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Gene, just a question. The author said "The resistance of the cable must be added to the output impedance of the amplifier".

But is that true? And if so why?
The damping is caused by the movement of the cone applying power to the amplifier and the amplifier providing negative feedback to resist this power. When the cable adds resistance the amplifier doesn't see as much power from the movement of the cone because the cable is dissipating some of that power. The amplifies negative feedback cannot work on power it doesn't see.
 
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